Episode 252 was all about the spiritual influence of Katherine Parr, and how she affected the spiritual development of the children of Henry VIII.
Below the episode you’ll find a transcript for easy reading.
Hey, hey, hey friend, welcome to the Renaissance English History Podcast, a part of the Agora Podcast now, and the original Tudor History Podcast. You guys, it is this weekend, 15 years ago, that I started the Renaissance English History Podcast. It was Labor Day weekend, it was a three day weekend. I really wanted to start a podcast mostly because I wanted to be able to train libraries because many of you know my actual work is in library land.
I wanted to be able to train libraries on how to create podcasts because I thought they were going to take off. I was like, this podcast thing, that’s going to take off and libraries need to know how to do that. And interestingly enough, uh, these days I actually do train libraries on how to podcast, which is super cool.
And so anyway, I was thinking it was 2009. I was like, what should I do a podcast on? Like, cause I mostly just wanted to learn how to do it. And I thought, well, I love tutor history, right? And so I was like, I’ll do that. And the tutors were on TV. It was the 500th anniversary of the reign of Henry VIII starting.
And it’s like, I’ll do something on tutor history. And this podcast was born. I remember stopping at a Best Buy on the way home from my office in Monrovia, California. I think I stopped at a Best Buy, maybe around Rancho Cucamonga. And I bought a cheap, the cheapest USB mic we could find. I could find and put out my podcast.
I had to figure out like how to use audacity and like where to host it and like all the different things. And finally, by the Monday night, the show went live and was up on iTunes. I was so excited. And one of the first comments I got was about my sound quality. And it was saying that. I needed to learn how to use a pop filter, and my sound quality still is not the greatest because I am a big fan of the quote that, it’s a very famous quote, about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the complete.
Because I could 100 percent put out an amazing. Best podcast quality sound ever ever ever would sound like NPR could have a whole studio I could like rent a studio the co working space. I work at sometimes they actually have studio space that I could rent Would be amazing and you know what? I would probably put out one episode a month if that if I did that because I just you know Who has the time to rent studio space and stuff?
So I put these out As I get the time and I don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the complete and I know some people don’t like that and that’s perfectly okay. There’s tons of podcasts you can listen to. NPR has a gazillion podcasts. I’m sure they will be happy to have your listenership. And I’m happy to have your listenership because you are here with me.
And I’m so excited that you are. For those of you who have been with me since the beginning, um, I’m so excited that you have stuck with me all this time. I love hearing the stories. There’s um, there’s a story of a woman who had young twins. And I forget her name now, but she emailed me around 2015. It really stuck with me that she was having a hard time getting her twins to go to sleep and she messaged me saying that she listened to my podcast when it was like three o’clock in the morning and she couldn’t get her kiddos to sleep, her babies to sleep.
And she would drive around the, um, the block, you know, trying to get them to sleep. And I remember thinking then, what? What a deep honor it is to, you know, be in your space with you. I don’t know what you’re doing when you’re listening to this right now. Maybe you’re cleaning, maybe you’re at the gym, maybe you’re driving, maybe you’re just, um, sitting at home playing a game.
I like to listen to podcasts while I’m going to share this as a, this is a confession here. I play a lot of those stupid games that are such time wasters and they’re kind of like my. My big guilty pleasure, I play Lily’s Garden. It’s one of those, like, it’s like, it’s one of those stupid matching games.
It’s like Candy Crush or whatever. I never got into Candy Crush, um, until I got into this Lily’s Garden a couple of years ago, actually. I had, this is like really going off track, but here we go. I promise we’ll get around to Catherine Parr at some point. A couple of years ago, I had a, I had a health scare and it all worked out fine, but I was waiting for a, uh, biopsy result test and I was trying to keep my mind off of it.
And um, I was playing Lily’s Garden as a way to distract myself, especially at night when I couldn’t sleep. And so this is about four or five years ago. I started, you know, it was the summer of 2020. I was playing Lily’s Garden to distract myself cause I was waiting for these test results and that just got me hooked.
And so I play Lily’s Garden. And the way that I justify playing it these days is I will listen to a podcast when I’m playing it, or I’ll listen to like an audio book or something, and then I feel like I’m not completely wasting that time because I’m still getting, you know, some learning and education.
So maybe you’re doing that while you’re listening to me. Um, I would love to know what you do when you listen to me. Like, that would be really cool. Because, you know, I’m just sitting here recording this. I don’t know who you are. Like some of you I know, but there’s plenty of you that I don’t know and I would love to know kind of what you’re doing and how, how I’m part of your life because I know that I am.
And that’s the thing. That was what this, this email from this woman showed me is that, It’s, it’s such an honor to share your time with you and it’s just, it’s something that I take very seriously and it’s a privilege and, uh, and, and I’m just really grateful that you let me in and you let me share your time with you.
And time is the one resource that we never get back, and we can’t ever get back, no matter how hard we work, we can’t get time back, and you choose to spend, you know, 20 minutes, 25 minutes of it a week with me, and, and I just, I don’t take that for granted, so, thank you. Thank you for being with me through your journey and something where this episode is on Catherine Parr and her, um, her role in the Reformation in England and just kind of what led to her religious changes and, and her spiritual life, all of that.
And it made me think about, you know, how far this podcast has come since I started it. My first book on Henry VIII that I ever read was in 1996 and it was January, it was over winter break. I was in college and it was The Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir. And almost 20 years to the date later, it was in, I think, March, springtime of 2016, I interviewed Alison Weir for this show for the first time.
I’ve interviewed her several times now. And just last week I got, uh, or two weeks ago, I got an email to a special screening of the new Catherine Parr movie, Firebrand, uh, in Leicester Square in London. And I couldn’t go because I was on vacation with my family, but it just, it really made me just kind of take a second and think, wow, like I never would have dreamt.
I never would have dreamt when I started this podcast 15 years ago. That it would have led to TudorCon and it would have led to like meeting so many amazing people. Um, being able to interview so many of the authors that I have read and looked up to. People that, you know, I watch their documentaries and, and fan girl on them and all that kind of stuff.
And, and like I get to talk to these people now. And, and I get to share all of this with listeners and be part of all of this with you. And, and I, uh, I just, sometimes you just kind of have to take a moment and say like, wow. Like, that’s really cool and, and it is, it is super cool and it’s super cool that, um, we got to do this together.
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Before I, uh, start crying, let’s get off to Catherine Parr. Catherine Parr, of course, has been in the news a lot lately, um, because of Firebrand. Also a personal share. I really have a hard time with Jude Law being Henry VIII. Like, in my world, Jude Law is, like, again, this is showing my age, but Jude Law is like the hot romantic lead.
Jude Law is the Jude Law from the holiday. Jude Law is like not Henry VIII. Like what? Like there’s a serious problem in the world when my jams are on in the grocery store in the doctor’s office and also Jude Law is Henry VIII. I am 8, 000 percent not okay. So that’s just my share on that. But yeah, Catherine Parr, getting a lot of press lately because of this movie.
And I wanted to talk about her specifically about her spirituality, about her role in the Reformation, because she did have a very pivotal, very important role in the Reformation. So I wanted to talk about that. So in 1546, Catherine Parr. was nervous. There was a plot against her. She was on her third husband at that point.
She had been married twice before. She was a survivor. She was someone who was politically savvy and she was going to have to perform her most politically adept moves ever to save her skin, uh, because of this plot to frame her for heresy. And she was able to overcome that, and that is perhaps one of the most famous parts of Catherine Parr.
She’s also remembered as the nursemaid, uh, but there’s so much more to her. She’s far more than just a survivor as well. She was a catalyst for religious change. in a very, very turbulent time. So we’re going to talk about how she used her position as queen to quietly but powerfully influence the course of the English Reformation.
Her story is one of resilience, of intellect, and careful maneuvering in a court where the stakes were life and death. Catherine was born in 1512 into a family deeply rooted in the English aristocracy. Her father was Sir Thomas Parr, and he was a close companion of Henry VIII. Her mother, Maud Green, was a lady in waiting to Catherine of Aragon.
The royal connection would shape Catherine’s future, but it was her early education that truly set her apart. Unlike many women of her time, Catherine received an education that emphasized not just domestic skills, but also languages, literature, and theology. These early years planted the seeds of deep intellectual curiosity that would later play a crucial role in her life.
Before she ever set eyes on Henry VIII, Catherine had already been married twice. Her first marriage at the age of 16 was to Edward Burra. He was a young nobleman from the Burra family of Gainsborough. Contrary to what some early biographers have claimed, Catherine’s first husband was not an older man, but was rather contemporary, likely in his early 20s or so.
The confusion apparently arose from a case of mistaken identity with Edward’s grandfather who had a similar name. Her first marriage, though, was Far from a fairy tale, the young couple lived at Gainsborough Old Hall under the tyrannical control of Edward’s grandfather, Sir Thomas Burrough, who was notorious for his violent outbursts and domineering behavior.
Catherine’s letters to her mother during this time revealed deep unhappiness in the household. Eventually, Maude Parr intervened, persuading Sir Thomas to allow Catherine and Edward to move to a smaller house at Curtin and Lindsay, where they could live independently. Despite this newfound freedom, Catherine’s happiness was short lived.
Edward Burrough died in the spring of 1533, leaving Catherine a widow at the young age of 21. The marriage had produced no children, and her mother had also died the previous year, so that left Catherine with little to support herself. Her siblings, though well connected, were not in a position to offer much assistance.
In this uncertain and vulnerable state, Catherine sought security through a second marriage. In 1534, she married John Neville, the third Baron Latimer, a man 20 years her senior. The Nevilles, of course, are a family that we hear of a lot, especially during the Wars of the Roses. They’re a powerful northern family, and this marriage elevated Catherine’s status, though it came with its own set of challenges.
As Lady Latimer, Catherine became stepmother to John’s two children and was thrust into the complex world of northern politics. In 1536, she found herself caught in the middle of the Pilgrimage of Grace, which was, of course, this large uprising against Henry VIII’s religious policies. And we’ve done episodes on the Pilgrimage of Grace before.
I will link to them in the show notes. The rebellion reached the Latimer’s home and Catherine, along with her stepchildren, was held captive by the rebels. Lord Latimer, who sympathized with the rebels cause, was forced to act as their intermediary, a role that nearly led to his execution for treason. The Latimers eventually moved south to escape the volatile political climate in the north, allowing Catherine to be closer to her siblings and to the Tudor court.
After the Latimers moved south, Catherine may have served in the household of Henry’s daughter, Princess Mary, though this remains a topic of debate among historians. What is clear is that by the early 1540s, Catherine had become a familiar figure at court.
As Lord Latimer’s health declined, Catherine began to consider her future. She had already been widowed once, she knew she would face the situation again. It was during this period that she met, and probably fell in love with Sir Thomas Seymour, the ambitious and charismatic brother of Jane Seymour, Henry VIII’s third queen.
Seymour was everything Catherine might have desired in a husband. He was young, he was attractive, he was charming, he was dashing, he was full of promise. She later wrote that she had fully intended to marry Seymour once. She was free to do so. However, fate intervened in the form of Henry VII himself.
Henry had recently executed his fifth wife. Fifth wife total. Second one he executed, right. Katherine Howard. and he had set his sights on Catherine. The exact circumstances of their meeting are unclear, but it’s likely that Henry noticed Catherine during one of his visits to Princess Mary’s household or through her family’s connections at court.
Lord Latimer died in March of 1543, and Henry wasted no time in proposing to Catherine. Despite her feelings for Seymour, she understood the risks of refusing a royal proposal and accepted Henry’s offer, setting aside her personal desires. for the power and influence that came with being queen. Catherine wrote about the marriage to Henry.
She wrote, how be it God withstood my will there in most vehemently and made me to renounce utterly mine own will and to follow his most willingly. That was what she said about her marriage to Henry VIII. So it doesn’t really sound like Like, romance was blooming, uh, but she was embracing her new role.
When she married Henry in 1543, her religious beliefs appeared to align with the traditional views expected at court. At the time, Henry was still determined to maintain certain Catholic practices within the Church of England, despite his break from Rome. Catherine was a devout woman, and she followed the conventional religious observances of the time.
attending daily services, and ensuring that her household did the same. However, beneath this veneer of orthodoxy, Catherine’s views were beginning to shift. Her marriage to Henry placed her at the center of the English court, where religious debate was a constant undercurrent. Catherine’s intellectual curiosity, combined with the influence of reform minded individuals around her, sparked a transformation in her faith.
Her interest in scripture grew and she began to explore the ideas of the Reformation more deeply. Her position as queen gave her access to the theological texts That were shaping the religious landscape of Europe. Catherine became increasingly convinced of the need for reform within the church.
Particularly the idea that individuals should have direct access to the scriptures without the mediation of clergy. This growing commitment to reform was reflected in Catherine’s writings. In 1545, she published Prayers or Meditations. A devotional work that marked a clear departure from traditional Catholic practices.
The book was non controversial on the surface. but subtly omitted prayers to the saints for the dead, instead emphasizing a personal relationship with God. This was a pretty bold move for a queen consort, especially one married to a king known for his, uh, unpredictable religious policies. Catherine’s most significant religious work came in 1547, just after Henry’s death.
When she published The Lamentation of a Sinner, in this book, Catherine openly expressed her Reformed beliefs, describing her spiritual journey and emphasizing justification by faith alone, a core principle of Protestant theology. She attributed her religious awakening to her study of the scriptures, writing with a passion that revealed her deep commitment to the Reformed cause.
The publication of this work was groundbreaking. It made Catherine the first woman in England to publish a book in her own name. Cementing her legacy as a pioneering female writer. Catherine’s writings were not just personal reflections. They were statements of faith that aligned her with the reformers at court.
These works circulated widely and contributed to the spread of reformed ideas among the English nobility. While her public religious observance remained cautious during Henry’s reign, these writings reveal a woman deeply engaged with the theological debates of her time. using her influence to quietly but effectively support the cause of the Reformation.
Catherine Parr’s commitment to the Reformed religion was not without danger. As Queen, she walked a tightrope between her growing reformist conviction and the volatile, often contradictory religious policies of her husband. The King, who had declared himself the Supreme Head of the Church of England, was notorious for his shifting religious stance, one that could swiftly swing from leniency towards reformers.
to brutal crackdowns on heresy with warning. And at this point in his life, Henry was going back into his more conservative period. People like Stephen Gardner, who was, of course, very conservative, were gaining in influence. So this was a dangerous thing for Catherine. Her deepening involvement in the Reformation placed her in grave danger, particularly as powerful figures at court began to suspect her of harboring heretical views.
Among her most dangerous adversaries were Stephen Gardner, the Bishop of Winchester, and Thomas Risley, the Lord Chancellor. Both men were staunch conservatives committed to preserving traditional Catholic practices within the Church of England. They saw Catherine’s growing influence as a threat to their position and the old religious order.
In 1546, the stakes were raised with the trial and execution of Anne Askew, a young woman from a noble family who had been arrested for distributing Protestant literature. and openly denying the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. This is, of course, where the bread and wine during communion literally become the body and blood Jesus, rather than a metaphor.
So it’s the miracle of the communion is that you are literally communing with Jesus instead of the bread and wine being representative. of it, right? So this was something that Henry had never wavered on. He always deeply believed in transubstantiation. The miracle of communion was transubstantiation.
Anne was tortured. She was the only woman racked in the tower that I think we know of. And she was eventually burned at the stake. She had been tortured so hard, of course, they had to carry her out to be burned. So that was unpleasant. And it sent a chilling message to reformers across England. But Anne Askew was not just a target for her own individual beliefs.
Her trial was also a thinly veiled attempt to implicate Catherine Parr. Gardner and Risley sought to use Anne to bring down the Queen. During her interrogation, they pressured Anne to reveal the names of other reformers and of her patrons and the people who were supporting her, hoping that she would implicate Catherine or her close associates at court.
and refused to give them what they wanted, even under extreme torture. Her silence, however, did not put an end to the suspicions surrounding Catherine. With Catherine now squarely in their sights, Gardner and Risley moved forward with their plot against the Queen. They drafted a warrant for her arrest, accusing her of engaging in heretical discussions and possessing banned books.
Thomas Risley himself had said of Catherine just a few years before when she had first married Henry. He said, A woman in my judgment, for virtue, wisdom, and gentleness, most meet for his highness, and, sure I am, his majesty never had a wife more agreeable to his heart than she is. How his views would change as he was embracing this plot against Catherine.
The Queen’s enemies were well aware that Henry’s health was deteriorating. They sought to remove Catherine before she could further influence the king or his heir, Prince Edward, who was known to be sympathetic to Protestant ideas. Catherine’s response to this mounting danger was masterful. The story goes that Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury, and one of her staunchest allies discreetly warned her of the impending threat.
She then sought out Henry and, in a very carefully crafted conversation, expressed regret if she had ever overstepped her role as his wife by discussing religious matters. She skillfully flattered the king, suggesting that her theological debates were just a means to learn from his superior knowledge.
Whether Henry was actually convinced by her words or simply unwilling to lose another wife to execution is uncertain, but either way, he reassured her of his affection. Then when Risley arrived the next day to arrest Catherine, he was met with the full force of Henry’s wrath. The king dismissed the warrant and chastised his ministers for daring to act against the queen without his consent.
Which, can you imagine their faces? They thought they had this whole thing like lock, lock down, eyes dotted, T’s crossed, the whole thing, and then they’re the ones getting the brunt of Henry’s anger. Must have been uncomfortable, and they must have felt really, uh, sideswiped or something, but Catherine had narrowly escaped.
The incident, though, underscored the deadly risks that she faced as a reformer in a court where religious alliances were as dangerous as they were shifting. Her survival in such a treacherous environment is a testament to her political acumen, she of course had learned that even before with the Pilgrimage of Grace, and her ability to navigate the complexities of Henry’s court.
The plot against Anne Askew was a stark reminder of the consequences of reformist beliefs and it likely made Catherine even more cautious. But this experience also only deepened her commitment to the Reformation. Making her advocacy more strategic, but no less sincere. Catherine Parr’s role as Queen extended far beyond her duties as Henry VIII’s wife.
She became a central figure in the lives of his three children, Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward. Her influence on their education and religious upbringing left a lasting impact that would shape the future of the English Reformation. She quickly assumed the role of stepmother with a sense of responsibility and care.
Though Henry’s children had been raised separately, Catherine brought them together, fostering a sense of unity within the royal family. Her greatest impact was on the education of Edward and Elizabeth, both of whom shared her intellectual curiosity and her love of learning. With Mary, she became close friends.
Catherine’s mother had served Mary’s mother. They were similar ages and they had similar interests. They both liked music. They both liked fashion. And in 1544, Chapuis, the Spanish ambassador, wrote that the new queen favors the princess in all she can. Elizabeth was just 10 years old when Catherine married Henry.
And she formed a particularly close bond with her stepmother. Catherine recognized Elizabeth’s potential and ensured that she received a rigorous humanist education similar to that of her brother Edward. Catherine brought in renowned scholars like Roger Ascombe to tutor Elizabeth, instilling in her a strong foundation in the classics.
language, and theology. Under Catherine’s guidance, Elizabeth developed into one of the most well educated women of her time, capable of conversing fluently in several languages, and deeply knowledgeable about the religious debates that were shaping Europe. Apparently, four of the five surviving letters that Elizabeth wrote before she turned 16 were actually addressed to Catherine Parr.
And Elizabeth would later translate Catherine’s book, Prayers or Meditations. into French, Italian, and Latin as part of her studies. Catherine was also a major contribution to Henry’s decision to restore Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession after having disinherited them earlier. This was something that would support both women’s claims to the English throne.
The influence of Catherine would later manifest itself in Elizabeth’s more moderate approach to Protestantism during her reign, where she sought to create a middle way that balanced the religious within her kingdom. Catherine’s relationship with Edward, the future Edward VI, was also equally significant.
She played a key role in his education, ensuring that he was taught by the leading humanist scholars of the day. Catherine’s commitment to reform was reflected in the tutors that she chose for Edward, who imbued the young prince with Protestant principles that would later drive his short but impactful reign.
Edward’s Protestant zeal, evident in his efforts to further the Reformation, can be traced back to the religious environment that Catherine nurtured around him. Edward actually wrote to Catherine Parr, Wherefore, since you love my father, I cannot but much esteem you. Since you love me, I cannot but love you in return.
And since you love the word of God, I do love and admire you with my whole heart. Catherine had a more complex relationship with Mary, given the princess’s staunch Catholicism, but she did manage to maintain a respectful and caring connection. Catherine’s efforts to foster harmony within the royal family meant that despite their religious differences, she supported Mary’s place in the succession and sought to ensure her well being.
Catherine’s influence may not have swayed Mary’s deeply held beliefs, but it did help keep the peace in a family often torn by religious conflicts. Catherine’s legacy within the royal family is one of intellectual and spiritual mentorship. She provided Henry’s children with not only a solid education, but also a model of thoughtful, Moderate reform that would resonate throughout their lives.
Her ability to balance her own reformist beliefs with the demands of her position as Queen allowed her to guide the young royals toward a future where reformation would take root each in their own way during their respective reigns. Catherine, of course, was not just a queen and a stepmother. She was also a figure in a network of reform-minded individuals, sometimes known as the par circle.
This group was composed of scholars, courtiers, religious thinkers. They gathered around Catherine and shared her commitment to advancing reformist ideas within the English court. This circle played a crucial role in the intellectual and religious life of the period. Key members included people like Thomas Cranmer, one of her closest allies, we said.
He was a leading voice for reform in England, and he found in Catherine a kindred spirit. Her support for his work, particularly in pushing for the translations of the Bible into English and other Protestant reforms was invaluable. Catherine’s influence at court provided Cranmer and others with the protection and patronage they needed to continue their work.
Another prominent member was Anne Seymour, Duchess of Somerset, who shared Catherine’s reformist views and would become a true confidante, at least while Catherine was queen. Once she was a widow and Anne Seymour was the wife of the protector, Anne Seymour would claim precedence over Catherine and actually would ask Catherine to give her her royal jewels and all of that kind of stuff.
And so things got really dramatic. Uh, but in the early days, they were confidants who both supported the Reformation. So Catherine Parr was part of this circle of like minded individuals, a network that strategically worked to influence policy and promote religious reform. Catherine Willoughby was also part of this circle.
They were very close friends. Catherine Willoughby was the wife of Charles Brandon. She actually disliked Catholicism, was such a strong Protestant. that she had a dog that she named Gardner after Stephen Gardner. And so she would be walking along telling her little dog Gardner to heal. And she got quite a kick out of that.
And I just think that’s a hilarious story. So Catherine’s legacy is one of quiet, but profound influence. As Queen, she navigated the dangerous waters of Tudor politics with intelligence and grace. She left an indelible mark on the religious landscape of England. And her writings, particularly The Lamentation of a Sinner, are early expressions of Protestant faith by a woman of her stature, and they set a precedent for female authorship in religious discourse.
Beyond her role in the Reformation, Catherine’s greatest legacy is in the education and moral guidance she provided Elizabeth and Edward. Her life and work exemplify the power of subtle strategic influence in a time of great religious and political upheaval. So we will leave it there for now. Uh, just a note and a reminder That TutorCon is coming up in, you guys, it’s like three weeks, less than three weeks, September 20th.
So, uh, if you have not gotten your online ticket yet for TutorCon Online, you don’t have an awful lot of time. I would definitely not want to miss out on those three days of learning and talks. We’ve got some amazing talks scheduled. You can go to Englandcast. com slash TutorConOnline TutorCon Online To learn more and to grab a coupon code to save some money off of your Tudorcon online ticket as well.
So englandcast. com slash Tudorcon online. You don’t have a lot of time. So Procrastinators, I see you, I validate you, and it’s, it’s time. Also a note as well that I do appreciate Armour and Castings for their support of this podcast. They make beautiful, beautiful replica, historically accurate accessories, jewelry, brooches.
All kinds of beautiful stuff. If you are looking for something that is a gift for the Tudor loving jewelry fan in your life, check out Tudor. Armorandcastings. com for their amazing, beautiful work. I’m so excited to have several of their pieces to give as prizes. for different things at TudorCon as well.
It’s, uh, they’re, they’re beautiful. Absolutely stunning. So, okay. I think that is it for me, my friend. Thank you again so much for listening to this show. Thank you for spending your time with me. I will be back very soon, like next week. Have a great week. Bye bye.