Episode 238 of the Renaissance English History Podcast was about Anne vs Cromwell.
In this episode of the Renaissance English History Podcast, Heather dives into the complex and dramatic relationship between Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell, two pivotal figures in Tudor history.
Once allies with a shared vision for religious reform, Anne and Cromwell eventually clashed over issues of power, ambition, and the redistribution of wealth from the dissolved monasteries. This ideological and personal rift ultimately culminated in Cromwell’s role in orchestrating Anne’s tragic downfall and execution, marking one of the most infamous moments of Henry VIII’s reign. Heather examines the motivations, political maneuvers, and sources that depict Cromwell as either a ruthless villain or a loyal executor of the king’s will. Join her as she explores the rivalry of Anne vs. Cromwell, offering insights into the ruthless dynamics of Tudor politics and the enduring impact of their lives on England’s history.
Listen below, or read the Very Rough Transcript.
A very rough transcript on Episode 236: Tudor Diaries and Journals
Hello, friends, and welcome to the Renaissance English History Podcast, the original Tudor History Podcast, celebrating 15 years this year of telling stories of Tudor England. I am your host, Heather, and I’m a storyteller who makes history accessible because I believe it’s a pathway to understanding who we are, our place in the universe, And being much more deeply in touch with our own humanity.
So in this episode, we are going to talk about the relationship between Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell. Of course, we just marked the anniversary of the death of Anne Boleyn, which was largely brought about because of Thomas Cromwell. How much was he responsible for her execution? Weren’t they originally friends?
Who knows? Let’s talk about it. I have to tell you, if you wonder why I sound a little different this week, it’s because I have a sinus infection. So that’s been fun. Um, I’m, I’m thinking I’m probably gonna have to stop and cough a couple of times while I’m doing this, but I’ll edit all of that stuff out.
So, you know, you just get to hear my like kind of sultry, like two octaves lower, voice, uh, for, for this episode. One thing I want to welcome the newest YouTube members. Of course, if you’re listening to this on YouTube, I’m You can join the YouTube channel to get extra episodes, extra content, mini courses, depending on what level you’re at, all of that kind of stuff.
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Alright, with all of that out of the way, let us talk about the relationship between Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell. Thomas Cromwell was, of course, Henry VIII’s chief minister. He and Anne were pivotal figures in one of the most dramatic periods of English history. Anne was known for her intelligence, her charm, her reformist zeal, and played a crucial role in Henry’s break with the Catholic Church.
Cromwell was the master of political strategy and was instrumental in orchestrating the monumental shift. Initially, Anne and Cromwell were allies. They were united by their ambition and their shared religious vision. However, their relationship soured leading to a dramatic and tragic turn of events. So today we’re gonna explore the complexities of their alliance and the reasons behind their eventual conflict.
We’ll examine how their ambitions intersected and diverged. And Hal Cromwell once Anne’s staunch supporter. I’m going to be talking about the story of Anne Boleyn. Anne Boleyn’s rise to power was nothing short of meteoric. Born into a modest, noble family, she spent her early years at the courts of Europe, Margaret of Austria, and she received an exceptional education.
By the time she returned to England, Anne was sophisticated, charming, highly intelligent a stark contrast to Henry’s aging queen, Catherine of Aragon. And of course, caught the king’s eye, and despite the numerous hurdles, including the Pope’s refusal to annul his marriage to Catherine, she became his obsession.
Enter Thomas Cromwell, a self made man. Cromwell had risen from very humble beginnings to become one of Henry’s most trusted advisors. He, of course, had started working for Wolsey early. Um, when Wolsey fell, he shifted his allegiance to Henry and went up through the ranks. Recognizing the king’s desperation to marry Anne, Cromwell saw an opportunity to secure his own power and further his reformist agenda.
He skillfully maneuvered through the legal and religious obstacles, orchestrating the break with Rome and the establishment of the Church of England. His legal acumen and his efficiency were crucial in facilitating Henry’s divorce from Catherine. and his subsequent marriage to Anne. Anne, for her part, recognized Cromwell’s potential and aligned herself with him.
Both were staunch supporters of the Reformation, seeking to curtail the influence of the Catholic Church in England. They worked together to dissolve the monasteries, redirecting their wealth to the crown, a move that, while controversial, significantly bolstered Henry’s treasury and consolidated the power of the new church.
Cromwell’s strategic brilliance and Anne’s unwavering determination made them a formidable team. However, their alliance was not purely ideological. It was also a relationship of convenience. Anne’s influence over Henry and her reformist zeal provided Cromwell with the political cover that he needed to push through radical changes.
In turn, Cromwell’s administrative prowess and legal expertise were invaluable to Anne in securing her position as Queen. Together, they reshaped the religious and political landscape of England, setting the stage for the dramatic events that would follow. As Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell’s alliance progressed, cracks began to appear, driven by their differing visions for the future of England.
One of the primary sources of tension was the use of wealth from the dissolved monasteries. Anne was deeply influenced by her reformist beliefs. And she envisioned these funds being used for charitable causes, such as education and relief to the poor, the things that the monasteries were actually doing or supposed to be doing.
So that needed to be replacing, of course, for many people, most people, really the only source of education or healthcare. would have been the local monastery. So once you dissolve the monastery, you still need to provide those services that were being provided. So that’s what she saw. She believed that this would aid the needy and also strengthen the moral foundation of the reformation.
Cromwell, though, had a more pragmatic approach. He saw the wealth from the monasteries as a means to solidify the crown’s power and address the kingdom’s financial troubles. Redirecting these funds to the crown’s coffers would ensure Henry VIII’s continued support and stabilize the monarchy. This fundamental disagreement over the redistribution of wealth highlighted the growing ideological rift between Ann and Cromwell.
Their disagreements were not confined to policy alone. Personal animosity soon surfaced. Ann’s fiery temperament and outspoken nature often led to public spats with Cromwell. According to the Imperial Ambassador, Eustace Shapley, Ann once said of Cromwell, I would like to see his head off his shoulders.
Such threats were not taken lightly at the Tudor court, and this particular comment underscored the depth of their conflict. Chapuis letters provide a vivid account of their deteriorating relationship, painting a picture of two powerful figures increasingly at odds. As the pressures of queenship mounted, she became more unpredictable and less willing to tolerate dissent.
Cromwell, ever the pragmatist, began to see Anne not as an asset, but as a liability. Her inability to produce a male heir, a critical expectation, fueled Henry’s dissatisfaction. Anne’s series of miscarriages, particularly the one in January of 1536 when she lost a child that was presumed to have been male, devastated Henry and diminished her standing at court.
Anne’s behavior, too, was increasingly seen as unqueenly. Unlike her predecessor, Catherine of Aragon, Who had been the epitome of royal decorum, Anne was outspoken and assertive. She refused to turn a blind eye to Henry’s infidelities, openly challenging him, which only further alienated her from the king and his advisors.
In a court where appearances and propriety were paramount, Anne’s conduct was deemed inappropriate for a queen. Cromwell, sensing the shifting winds, began to distance himself from Anne. He was acutely aware of how precarious his position would become, If he continued to support a queen who was rapidly falling out of favor, his loyalty to Henry outweighed any previous allegiance.
As tensions mounted, Cromwell’s strategic mind saw an opportunity. Aligning himself with Henry’s desire to be rid of Anne could not only secure his position, but also allow him to further his own political agenda. This pragmatic shift set the stage for the dramatic and tragic events that would soon unfold.
Marking the beginning of the end for Anne Boleyn. The catalyst for Anne’s downfall can be traced to a fateful event that marked a turning point in her relationship with Henry VIII. Her very tragic miscarriage on January 29th, 1536. The timing of this miscarriage was particularly significant because it occurred on the very same day that Catherine of Aragon, Henry’s first wife, was buried.
The coincidence of these events was seen as an ominous sign by many at court, reinforcing the growing belief that Anne’s marriage to Henry was cursed. This miscarriage was likely Anne’s third. But, what made it especially devastating was that the fetus appeared to be a male child. For Henry, who was desperate for this male heir to secure the dynasty, this loss, on the very same day his first wife, whom he left because she couldn’t have a male child, was buried, was a profound blow.
His disappointment and anger were palpable, and his faith in Anne’s ability to provide him with the much needed son was severely shaken. This tragic event eroded Henry’s affection for Anne and heightened his perception that their marriage was ill fated. Amidst this personal crisis, Cromwell saw an opportunity to realign his political strategy.
Understanding the King’s growing disenchantment with Anne, Cromwell began to distance himself from her and sought to position himself favorably with Henry. The ever astute Cromwell recognized that Anne’s influence was waning, and his survival depended on adapting to the changing dynamics of court.
Eustace Chapuis, again, was reporting that Cromwell was already making moves to arrange a new marriage for Henry. By April 1st, 1536, Chapuis informed Charles V that Cromwell and Anne were on bad terms, and that there was talk of a potential new queen. Cromwell’s maneuvering indicated that he was potentially laying the groundwork for Anne’s replacement, demonstrating his ability to anticipate and influence the king’s desires.
Another catalyst for Ann’s downfall was the sermon that she encouraged her er John Skip to deliver at Easter that year. The sermon was a thinly veiled attack on Cromwell, and it was preached in the presence of the king, and the entire court skip’s message emphasized the dangers of evil counselors leading the king astray, comparing Cromwell to a leader from the Old Testament who had plotted against Queen Esther and her people only to meet his end on the very gallows he had prepared for his enemy.
Anne’s intention was clear, to undermine Cromwell’s influence over Henry and rally support against his policies, particularly the redistribution of the wealth from the dissolved monasteries. This public denouncement deeply angered Cromwell. He was not a man to be threatened lightly and Anne’s challenge to his authority could not go unanswered.
In the wake of the sermon, Cromwell reportedly fell ill for a week. Many historians believe that this illness, in quotes, was, in fact, a period of intense plotting and strategizing. Cromwell understood that Anne had now positioned herself as a formidable adversary. Her miscarriage had already strained her relationship with Henry, and now, by attacking Cromwell, She was risking everything.
During this week, Cromwell likely began to lay the groundwork for Anne’s downfall. This sermon, therefore, served as a critical turning point. It demonstrated Anne’s boldness and willingness to confront her enemies head on, but it also showcased her growing desperation and miscalculation of Cromwell’s resolve.
In publicly challenging Cromwell, Anne had inadvertently accelerated her own demise, giving him the impetus to act decisively against her. This sermon pretty much marked the beginning of the end for Anne. By aligning himself with Henry’s wishes, Cromwell ensured his continued favor with the king. His strategic shift was a master stroke political survival demonstrating his ability to navigate the treacherous waters of the Tudor court.
At least for now. That would fail four years later, but that’s a different story. This realignment was not just a betrayal of Anne, but a testament to Cromwell’s understanding of the precarious balance of power and his unyielding commitment to maintaining his influence and position. As Cromwell set the stage for Anne’s downfall, he showed the pragmatism that defined his entire career.
His actions were driven by awareness of the shifting political landscape and his focus on self preservation. Anne’s downfall. With Henry VIII’s growing disillusionment with Anne Boleyn and his desire to marry Jane Seymour, Cromwell set into motion one of the most infamous plots in Tudor history.
Cromwell’s orchestration of Anne’s downfall was a masterclass in political maneuvering, utilizing his network and influence to gather damning evidence against the Queen. Cromwell began by collecting testimonies and rumors that could be used to accuse Anne of serious crimes. He focused on her supposed relationships with several men at court including Henry Norris, Francis Weston, William Brereton, and Mark Smeaton, a court musician.
Smeaton’s role was particularly critical. Unlike other men, Smeaton was of lower status and more vulnerable to coercion. Rumors circulated that Smeaton had been tortured into confessing an affair with Anne. While the Spanish Chronicle, a less reliable source, claimed he was subjected to a knotted rope around his neck.
Several other more credible accounts say that he was probably just likely threatened or intimidated rather than physically tortured. Cromwell’s meticulous gathering of evidence was reported in detail by Shapwe, who noted that Cromwell acted under direct orders from Henry. Shapwe’s letters provide a vivid account of the lengths to which Cromwell went to secure the confessions needed to bring down the Queen.
These letters also reveal that Henry was not merely a passive observer, But an active participant in the plot against his wife. On May 2nd, 1536, Anne was arrested and taken to the Tower of London. The charges brought against her were severe, adultery, treason, and incest. Cromwell’s role in the trial proceedings was pivotal.
He ensured that the accusations were presented in the most damaging light possible, orchestrating a swift and decisive legal process, which we’ve talked about in other episodes. Anne’s alleged lovers, including, of course, her own brother George, were also arrested and tried. Evidence was climsy, relying on coerced confessions and dubious testimonies, but of course, they were found guilty.
The outcome was never in doubt. Cromwell’s orchestration of Anne’s downfall demonstrated his political acumen and his ruthlessness. By securing Anne’s execution, he not only removed a once powerful rival and her team of supporters. but also solidified his own position at court. His actions were driven by a combination of loyalty to Henry, self preservation, and an understanding of the court’s brutal dynamics.
The plot against Anne remains a stark reminder of the perilous nature of power and the lengths to which individuals will go to secure their own survival. Anne faced her execution with remarkable composure. Dressed in a gray gown with fur and a crimson petticoat, she ascended the scaffold At the Tower of London.
Before a gathered crowd, she delivered her brief speech, accepting her fate with dignity. She knelt upright as was customary for a noble execution, and with a swift stroke from the French swordsman, a concession granted by Henry VIII, her life was ended. The public reaction to Anne’s execution was a mix of shock, relief, and curiosity.
Many were stunned by the rapid fall of the once powerful queen, while others, swayed by the charges of adultery and treason, saw her death as a necessary act of justice. Historically, Anne’s execution marked a significant turning point. It underscored the absolute power of the monarchy and the ruthless measures employed to maintain it.
In the aftermath of Anne’s death, Cromwell’s influence at court surged. He had proven his loyalty to Henry VIII by orchestrating the removal of Anne and paving the way for Jane Seymour. This consolidation of power, however, was short lived. His own downfall came in 1540. Ironically, through another marriage.
His arrangement of Henry’s marriage to Anne of Cleves turned disastrously sour, leading to his arrest on charges of treason and heresy. Just as swiftly as he had engineered Anne Boleyn’s demise, Cromwell himself was executed. It was almost like he wrote the playbook and then it was used against him. The role of Cromwell in Anne’s downfall has been the subject of intense debate among historians.
Traditionally, Cromwell has been cast as a villain, a Machiavellian figure who ruthlessly engineered Anne’s destruction. This view is supported by his orchestration of the trial and the dubious evidence used to convict Anne and her alleged lovers. Recent scholarly interpretations, however, offer a more nuanced perspective.
Historians like George Bernard argue that Cromwell was acting under Henry’s explicit orders. positioning him as more of an executor to the king’s will than an independent agent. And Hilary Mantel’s portrayal in Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies further humanizes Cromwell, depicting him as a very complex character navigating the treacherous landscape of Tudor politics.
Evaluating primary sources is also crucial in understanding these perspectives. Shapwey’s letters provide detailed, though of course biased, accounts of all of the court intrigues and Cromwell’s actions. Alessius account, written years later, introduces potential inaccuracies and personal grievances. And then there’s the Spanish Chronicle, which is colorful but often unreliable, filled with sensationalized details.
So, you just have to try to examine the sources critically and try to piece together a more accurate picture of Cromwell’s role. Whether seen as a villain or pragmatist, his actions during Anne Boleyn’s downfall remain a testament to the complexities of power and ambition. It’s also essential to recognize the broader historical significance.
Anne Boleyn’s fate played a crucial role in the English Reformation and the establishment of the Church of England, while Cromwell’s actions demonstrated the limits and the dangers of royal service. Their lives and deaths continue to captivate historians and the public alike, offering insights into the complexities of human ambition and loyalty.
So we will end it there for now, my friend. I have to tell you, I have stopped about 138 times during this recording to cough, so I’m gonna have a fun job editing. It’s, it’s gonna be good. Hopefully I catch them all. Uh, if I didn’t, and you’re still with me, I apologize. But hopefully I did. All right, I will be back again next week.
Remember you can go to Englandcast. com slash Tudorcon online to learn more about the online version of Tudorcon and I will talk to you again very soon. Have an amazing week, my friends. All right. Bye bye
Heather Teysko is the creator, writer, and producer of The Renaissance English History Podcast,  the original Tudor history podcast, started in 2009. She's been writing about history online for over 25 years, since her first site on Colonial American history became number one in history on Yahoo in 1998. In 2019 she created Tudorcon, which is now a yearly event, in addition to writing books, and running TudorFair.com - a whimsical Tudor Merch shop.
She has been passionate about Tudor England since she first read Alison Weir's The Six Wives of Henry VIII 30 years ago, and subsequently moved to London after college to spend her time immersed in Tudor history (how exciting when she got to interview Alison for the first time!). In addition to history, she is passionate about travel, and has lived in 3 countries and 4 states (not counting her perpetual state of confusion), and her family (who help her host her YouTube channel occasionally).
