Heather Darsie talks about her new book Anna, Duchess of Cleves at the Tudor Summit 2019.
Heather Darsie works as a licensed attorney in the US. As well as her legal qualifications she has a BA in German, which was of great value in her research in the archives of Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands for this book. She is currently studying for her Master of Arts in Early Modern History. She runs MaidensAndManuscripts.com and regularly contributes to QueenAnneBoleyn.com and TudorsDynasty.com. She has been researching The King’s Beloved Sister for 6 years.
Book link:
Anna of Cleves: The King’s Beloved Sister
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Transcript: Heather Darsie on Anna of Cleves
Heather Teysko:
Heather Darsie is the next speaker, and I’m so glad you’re here, and welcome. Before we get started can you just kind of introduce your work. You’ve got like some very new exciting stuff, and so it’s going to be a little bit of a cryptic interview so people should buy your book when it comes out.
But can you just kind of introduce how you came to this period and what your research is in primarily?
Heather Darsie:
Yeah so I think I first became interested in Tudor history when I was probably about twelve. We had to write a report about a figure from history and I stumbled across Elizabeth I. So that’s that was 20-some odd years ago at this point.
Then as far as my research into Anna of Cleves, back in 2012 or so, I just became interested generally in the six wives. Anna always only took up a few pages in all the history books written about the six wives, so I thought okay, well this seems odd to me there has to be more to it than that. I’m a German speaker and she was always, her name was always written as Anne of Cleves and I figured that that wasn’t right. So that’s kind of what got me started, it’s just being curious about.
Heather Teysko:
Okay well, what was important about her from the German aspect rather than just as a woman living in England? And you call her Anna, why do you?
Heather Darsie:
Yes, well that’s her name. She was named after a family member and it is Anna. She did sign her documents as Anna.
Heather Teysko:
Okay, perfect. So why did you, well we kind of talked about this, but why did you choose to write about her?
Heather Darsie:
I just thought there was more to it, and I just I really thought, and I still do think that up until now, she’s kind of gotten the short end of the stick. I think that some of that has to do with just isolating her life to events in England, and not that they weren’t important. I think that there have been many really good books written about her life in England.
I just thought that it was important to write something to look at her more as a woman from the Holy Roman Empire and kind of get an idea for what her life would have been like there, and being from the Holy Roman Empire impacted her life in England. So my goal is to expand how people view her. Not necessarily change the story of what happened to her in England, if that makes sense.
Heather Teysko:
Kind of giving like a more holistic approach of her life rather than–
Heather Darsie:
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely yeah.
Heather Teysko:
So then of course the marriage. Now there’s so many rumors, and I know a lot of this is going to be in your book, but how do you think Henry actually did feel about Anna?
Heather Darsie:
I think he respected her. I think it’s anyone’s guess as to whether or not he thought that she was attractive truly or not. But he respected her and I’m sure he at least had a soft spot. He’s still invited her to court. I mean she met Katherine Howard.
We don’t know how much she interacted with Mary and Elizabeth, but I think it’s safe to say that she had some interaction with them. I go into that a little bit more in the book, and I think other historians have looked at it a little bit–
Heather Teysko:
Yeah didn’t she give them a puppy? Wasn’t there a gift of a dog or something like that at Christmastime?
Heather Darsie:
Yes. So Anna gave a pair of horses with velvet wrappings, and then Henry gave Katherine a pair of dogs which Katherine then passed over to Anna.
Heather Teysko:
Oh, it was a regift… So what about the way she’s been handled by history, and being called like the Flanders mare, and everything like that?
Heather Darsie:
As far as the Flanders mare goes, I think that that term came about in either in the late 16th or early 17th century. By the time everyone was dead. And I’ve done some research before and it just seems odd to me that throughout his entire career the only person about whom Hans Holbein would lie is Anna. It doesn’t make sense.
Holbein did that portrait of her that’s now hanging in the Louvre in 1539. In 1538 he did a portrait of Cristina of Milan and that was regarded to be a likeness of her. So why would he suddenly go off the rails in his career, especially when he’s working for a King, and lie about the way someone looked?
There’s also, I’m not sure have you seen the cover yet? So I chose that cover image – I was actually able to find that portrait. I had been doing some other research into the portraiture of Anna, and that one came to my attention. I think that the last time it was really widely recognized was in the 1940’s. So I was able to find that and visit it, and take a look at it and it’s a very very pretty portrait as you can see.
I think that the facial similarities between the cover image that I’m using and also the Louvre portrait are phenomenal. She’s also wearing the same shirt and jewelry in the portrait that’s my cover image as she is in the Louvre. If you’re curious about where that portrait is there’s a lot more information about it including when it was painted and who painted it and some possible companion portraits of her siblings in the book.
There’s lots… I don’t remember exactly how many images there are in the book, but it focuses mostly on buildings in Germany, and castles in Germany that I was able to visit that have to do with her, and images of her family members, and there’s not a whole lot about English people. So I’m really hoping that bringing these new images or collecting them together at least in a book about Anna will also give us a better feel for what her life was like in court culture in the United Duchies.
Heather Teysko:
Perfect, so then you touch on her life there in Cleves and in Germany. What made her such an attractive bride? Why was Cromwell eager for this marriage? Why was she attractive as a bride?
Heather Darsie:
I think that it is important to recognize that there were arguably four great powers. I think people usually focus on England and France and Spain, which is the Holy Roman Empire. Charles V of course, is from his part Spanish, but they leave out Saxony and that’s the land of Martin Luther. Anna’s brother-in-law was the elector of Saxony, and they were very very powerful. Also, the United Duchies themselves was. I can’t get into it too much but it was very uniquely positioned within the Holy Roman Empire–
Heather Teysko:
Do you think that in part it’s been overlooked because it wasn’t like, how united was it? Because when I think about the German states, I don’t think about a cohesive country until at least after 1848, and it–
Heather Darsie:
Correct yeah.
Heather Teysko:
So do you think that that contributes to maybe why it was overlooked because it hadn’t yet pulled together and become cohesive the way France and Spain had by this point in England had?
Heather Darsie:
I’m not sure, but the term United Duchies just relates to all those little territories that were originally governed by Anna’s father and on his mother, so that’s what that term refers. They’re not all of the duchies in Germany. There was still a ton of, I think there’s over 200 princedoms and bishoprics and things in Germany. There are some tiny little ones and the borders were constantly moving. But I think that you might be onto something. I don’t know the definitive answer for that.
But just as far as like Cromwell thought the Anna would make an attractive bride, I think that between where her family was situated in the Holy Roman Empire and also the connection to Saxony was really important.
Heather Teysko:
I see. So then there’s the rumors that I asked you about- did Anna have any children? There’s this persistent rumor that comes from time to time that she had children with him–
Heather Darsie:
I know, so my famous refrain I go into it a little bit more in the book, and I think there’s, I think Rebecca Larson of Tudors Dynasty asked me for her podcast, a few months ago. I’m sorry I didn’t look it up, but she asked me the same question. I gave a bit of an answer for that too, but I think it was in August of 1541 Henry went to visit Anna at Richmond.
Shortly after that of course, in November of 1541 is when Katherine Howard experienced her fall. Then, I think it was late December to early January, so 1541 to 1542, Anna had taken to her bed because she was sick. She was plagued by illness and stomach issues. It’s possible that she had some sort of stomach cancer, or abdominal cancer, probably not reproductive, but that she had some sort of cancer in her abdomen that eventually led to her death.
But she the way the rumor really got started was she had taken to her bed because she was ill. She was in bed for a while because she was very ill, and one of her maidservants had had a baby and she was holding the baby, and someone said, oh and it was a boy I think, if I remember right. Again there’s more about in the book, but that’s kind of how that rumor got started. But it doesn’t make any sense because in August of 1541 Henry still really liked Katherine. Also why would Anna put herself in that position?
Heather Teysko:
Yeah, it’s funny because I think even in the Tudors they hinted that too. There’s that scene, Joss Stone is playing chess with Henry and there’s like this giggle between them and it’s like this flirtatious, like “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t have left you.”
Heather Darsie:
Keep in mind that in order for a marriage to be annulled, you have a foreign woman who is one of the highest-ranking women in English society now – who has a royal bastard? Who in their right mind would do that and that would make it very difficult for her to marry anybody else. Not that she did, but just, at that time in 1541 she would have been 25, 26 so she’s still pretty young.
Heather Teysko:
Is this touching too much on your book, but do you think that she thought there was a possibility of her marrying again? Because the impression I always had of her was that she was almost kept in England as like a hostage, that she couldn’t really go back. I just wonder if the idea of marriage perhaps – like an English nobleman or something might have been dangled in front of her?
Heather Darsie:
I can’t confirm whether because I just haven’t found evidence of it. If there was a possibility for a marriage with an English person, but I’m sure that that was something that was probably thought about, or at least if something were ever uncovered I wouldn’t be surprised about that.
Heather Teysko:
Okay, interesting. So tell me about your research. What you did to research her life?
Heather Darsie:
Well, I started by writing letters in German to various areas because I didn’t really know where to start, or how to start. The German people have been phenomenally helpful. I’m so thankful for their kindness and their patience with me too. Because sometimes I would ask, I’m sure I asked dumb questions here and there, but I was able to build up a relationship with a network of archives and they provided me with documents.
I could have a look at, and there’s not there are not a whole lot of things that exist from on her childhood or very many letters of hers that exist in the archives that I was working with, but secondary sources, they gave me great guidance on secondary sources.
I am NOT a Latin speaker, so I can translate Latin to a certain degree, I have a certain degree of aptitude with it but I do not feel like I can say, oh yeah I can read Latin. They helped me with Latin translations sometimes if I had a hard time, they provided me with ways to look at paleography German. Paleography from the time period so I have a better idea of what I was looking at so it was really a lot of emailing and letter-writing.
Then in September of 2018 actually went to Germany, and I stayed with some good friends of mine that just so happened to live in the former United Duchies. We trekked all around the area. They were very, it was one of those things where we went to all these places that have existed of course, their entire lives because they’re hundreds of years old, but they never visited. So “Hey this is great. The American’s coming! We can go have a look!”
But a few different castles in places that she would have been familiar with, probably spent some time in. I was able to take some pictures which are in the books. So I’m hoping that that will be a nice treat for everyone to kind of get an idea for what German buildings look like. One of the ones that I visited as far as I know was not impacted by either of the World Wars.
That’s a big problem with researching on Anna and her family, and why portraiture of them is so rare. Cleves was completely destroyed during World War II as were a lot of other buildings. So there are treasures that have just been completely lost. I think there’s a tiny bit more information about that in the book. It’s kind of more than just a footnote, but that’s why it’s so hard to know what she looked like. We don’t have any pictures of her as a child that have been uncovered. That’s what war does.
Heather Teysko:
So when you were there, what was it like for you to be walking in her footsteps?
Heather Darsie:
It was pretty cool. So I tend to be a fairly sober-minded person, and I did get a little choked up here and there, so that was really interesting. Just getting a feel for what – let me back up a second – what was nicest for me is as an American person living in the Midwest, the most rewarding moments for me were visiting those museums, and they’re of course German museums about German history in Germany.
Finding that my comprehension of their history was right, so that was really good. Especially when you’re writing about a foreign culture, and most of your research is from a foreign language. So that was really nice. I had a few moments where I would walk into a room in a museum usually, and all of a sudden there is a portrait of one of her family members that I wasn’t expecting to see.
One of the castles I visited, there were several images that I did not know of her depictions. I guess they weren’t portraits from the 16th century, but just depictions of things related to her family that I didn’t know existed. That was really rewarding. I hope that answers the question. I’m getting a bit rambling.
Heather Teysko:
What about your book gives us a new perspective on her?
Heather Darsie:
I will let the reader decide ultimately, but again it’s researched from the German perspective. So getting into, I can’t get into the details about Anna’s life specifically when she was younger, but it looks at, these are the values she would have learned. This is how her life would have been structured. These are the places where she likely would have lived. This is what the court culture would have been like.
It’s just learning some of those distinctions between English and in German culture. I think too it gives a different view as to what happened with Cromwell. Again I’m not saying that any of the reasons for Cromwell’s downfall are incorrect. I think it’s just kind of fleshing out a little bit more of “Hey, this also happened.”
Getting back to what is different about my book, it really really breaks down reasons for her staying in England, and what her family was trying to do to get her back. Also just what they were up to on the continent. So while it is definitely a biography about Anna but it does bring in quite a bit more about her brother and her older sisters. Her sister Amalia unfortunately, we just don’t know a whole lot about Amalia, and we may never… I’m not sure–
Heather Teysko:
Can I ask you a question? Did her grandfather really have like 96 children?
Heather Darsie:
He was known as the child maker. He had three illegitimate children, and he had lots and lots of non of illegitimate children so they were well connected. There’s a little bit more detail about this in the book. I’m sorry, I know that’s getting annoying, but it does discuss that briefly. But yes he was prolific, if you will. I think 96 is too many, I don’t think it was 96, but it was impressive, and I was able to confirm that from actually a reprint of a book, I want to say from the early 17th century.
Heather Teysko:
What do you hope that people will take away from your book after they read?
Heather Darsie:
I hope they’ll have new conversations about her. I hope that she won’t be discarded or regarded as just an ugly little lady, that was a small blip on the screen. I think that she and her family were way more important than people have realized up until now. Overall, I hope that it fills in her story a lot better.
I mentioned this before but I hope that it kind of fills in a little bit more about Cromwell, and what happened to him. Again not trying to say that anybody’s wrong about anything that’s happened so far, but just “Hey, this might make a little more sense about her story.” So to put it succinctly, I hope it makes her story make more sense.
Heather Teysko:
Can I also ask, because the other thing that I feel like, you know so much of what I think is so important about what historians are doing, this fleshing out the actual people behind these stereotypes. So there’s that stereotype about her, and maybe this is something you won’t be able to tell me, but I’m gonna ask you and we’ll see, but there’s also the stereotype that she was so lucky to have gotten away and she was the smart one. That she was so relieved because she got to be separated, and be gone with all of it.
But I’ve read stuff saying that she was actually quite offended, and that even after Katherine Howard’s fall, she actually made some kind of comment thinking like Henry might take her back. Then when he married Katherine Parr, she made some kind of disparaging comment about Katherine Parr’s looks. Kind of like being catty about it.
I just wonder if you can, like, was she really the smart one who was really lucky, and was like happy that she got away from Henry? Those aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive – maybe she was the smart one? Yes and maybe she was really lucky and then she knows it, and wasn’t necessarily happy about it so I don’t know. What can you tell me anything about that stereotype of her?
Heather Darsie:
I’m going to give you a vague answer, hopefully it’ll be a bit of an answer. I think that you’re right. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I think that frequently women, as we all know for that time period, were pawns. They were pawns, and so she did not have control over her situation. I think that she managed herself as well as she could. I don’t know that going from being a queen to be back to being a duchess is really that exciting, right? I just don’t think. Yes and she had seen what happened to Catherine of Aragon who put up a fight about it. So maybe there was some of that too. Maybe she was a fast learner. I think she was clever.
Heather Teysko:
So when does your book come out?
Heather Darsie:
So it is set for pre-order right now. It is released in the UK, you can get it on Amazon.co.uk. It will be released on the 15th of April if you live in the United States. You can pre-order it that way if you don’t want to wait until July 1st but you do have to pay the shipping and handling from the UK even if you have Amazon Prime. Don’t quote me on this I think it’s $8 and I looked at the price in pounds in the shipping versus the cost to pre-order it in the US. Right now I think it’s actually less expensive to preorder it from the US via Amazon.co.uk. So April 15th for UK and July 1st for the United States and for Germany.
Heather Teysko:
Where else can people find your work other than that? Because you have a website.
Heather Darsie:
I do, yeah. MaidensandManuscripts.com. I also contribute here and there to QueenAnneBoleyn.com and TudorsDynasty.com.
Heather Teysko:
Is there anything else you want to share with us about Anna or about yourself?
Heather Darsie:
Just ultimately it’s important to keep an open mind. With the kind of work that I do when I’m not being a historian, you always have to look at both sides and realize that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Heather Teysko:
Right, ’cause you’re a lawyer. I don’t think people caught that.
Heather Darsie:
Yup. I sure am.
Heather Teykso:
Well, thank you so much.
Heather Darsie:
Allright, thank you!
[advertisement insert here: if you like this show, and you want to support me and my work, the best thing you can do (and it’s free!) is to leave us a rating on iTunes. It really helps others discover the podcast. Second best is to buy Tudor-themed gifts for all your loved ones at my shop, at TudorFair.com, like leggings with the Anne Boleyn portrait pattern on them, or boots with Elizabeth I portraits. Finally, you can also become a patron of this show for as little as $1/episode at Patreon.com/englandcast … And thank you!]