James Peacock of the Anne Boleyn Society talks about Anne Boleyn’s influences, her family, her relationship with Henry, her rivalry with Cromwell, and more at the Tudor Summit 2018.
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Transcript: James Peacock on Anne Boleyn
Heather: So the next speaker, (I’m very excited) is James Peacock from the Anne Boleyn Society. So I’ve got this biography off of your Linkedin profile so. Since 2014 you have led the Anne Boleyn Society and you founded the Anne Boleyn Society, which is an online community with over 20,000 followers. It exists to celebrate the life and legacy of Queen Anne Boleyn and promote her influence on the shaping of British history. The Society aims to discuss and debate the life of Anne while taking into account the period of time in which she lived.
I’m very interested to start. How did you get into Anne Boleyn?
James: Gosh, that started when I was very very young. My interest in history kind of grew as a young child. I remember visiting certain locations like The Tower of London, Hever Castle, and I just found the Tudor period in general so fascinating. There was something in particular about Anne Boleyn that I always found so intriguing.
I was quite young when I watched the film Anne of Thousand Days and that just kicked the interest in me, that was this big. That was just the big start for me. I just absolutely, from then on, had this real interest in this woman who just came across as so strong, so intelligent, so determined, so passionate and had this incredible story about her.
I could tell from quite a young age, reading books that she was judged so differently depending on who was writing the book or something and that made me more and more intrigued about her. There were some parts that you read about or you find out that she didn’t always come across as the easiest person. And in other parts you read that she came across very much like a very kind, a generous person. That’s one of the things that drew me to her, and it’s kind of been the interest ever since really.
What I find still fascinating about her is because she comes across as human. There are so many characters you read about in history that come across as quite one-dimensional. But with her, she comes across as quite more real, and I think that, to me, is where the interest has always been.
Heather: And it’s interesting because you talk about the people that love her. It‘s hard to find a middle ground. One of the articles that I saw you had written was like bitch Anne versus like angel or something. Tell me about what your opinion on that is.
James: Well, I think, to be honest, I can’t imagine from her experiences, I think it’s always important and you probably do this yourself when you’re reading about these people, you kind of put yourself into their perspective – How would they have felt? What they must have thought of this? how frustrating this must have been? But I think for Anne, she comes across as someone who shows her emotions. Some people could say someone who had a very loose tongue at times.
You could tell that she had situations like with her step-daughter Mary for example, that was not an easy relationship. You can tell she was trying to reach out to Mary and Mary understandably would knock her back because she obviously did not see Anne Boleyn as the Queen. She was pretty much siding with her mother and you can understand how for Anne that would be. She couldn’t control her emotions on that part, and that was, I think so interesting about her.
So you get this side that she doesn’t always come across particularly easy and quite temperamental at times, but then you get this side of history about her charity and generosity and how she helped certain people like exiles from abroad, her interest in the Reformation, interested in the poll, she was interested in charity in general. It’s so interesting. I think no one is a saint. I don’t believe in saints. That’s one of the reasons why I like Anne, because when you read about her, you get the sense that she was a real person
Heather: Yes, she was almost human, huh? Go figure. It’s interesting that sometimes people want to call her a feminist, I always kind of hesitate to put this kind of modern concepts on people that wouldn’t have that kind of vocabulary and wouldn’t have had those kinds of thoughts. What do you think about her in terms of a feminist or not?
James: Well I could see why people today look at her as a role model for feminism or for female leadership, similar to her daughter Elizabeth and to a certain extent, to Mary I as well. But I am very hesitant to kind of give her that title because that wasn’t a title that existed in that time, and I can see why people feel that she is ahead of her times.
But I think she is pretty much of her time and I think she’s the product of this education, experience that she had in the courts of Margaret of Austria and in the courts of France where she had been surrounded by these strong, influential women. Of course, then becoming Queen and being crowned almost like a monarch rather than a consort. I think really she’s pretty much of her times, she’s working within the boundaries of her times.
Heather: Yeah, it’s interesting. I want to talk about that early education and experience. It also lies with this summit, because one of these other speakers is Danièle, the five-minute medievalist. Talking about Christine De Pizan who, perhaps her writings would have been at court of Margaret of Austria. Her writings are again something people try to say is feminist or not. There is this debate over her.
I guess I want to ask you this kind of early education that Anne had at the court of margaret of Austria and surrounded by these powerful Queens of the continent. Can you talk to me a little bit about her early role models in that aspect?
James: I think, personally, that that was her big impact really. I mean going to the court of Margaret of Austria, this woman who had been married a few times, had turned down suitors, and was roaming this region for her. Then Anne goes to France and of course, she’s at the court of France and you’ve got Margaret of Yolande there and Louis of Savoy. You’ve got these powerful figures who were very much involved in politics and the government in these countries.
Even then, when she comes back to England, you’ve got Catherine of Aragon who -it was a number of years before Anne came back- but she was roaming this region while Henry was away so she’s got these influences to go on for herself. I think that would have had such a strong, obviously, we don’t know what conversations would have taken place between her and these women, you can’t deny they must have had a huge -well they did have a huge impact on her and who she became–
Heather: Yeah, yeah. This was such an interesting period in terms of education for women in general. It seems like there was this hype for learning for women in this period. Even you talk about Catherine of Aragon and the way she coordinated her daughter’s education and it was this odd humanistic England, later on, you don’t see under the Stuart Kings, and earlier you don’t see it, and there is a lot of value in that.
What kind of stuff do you think she was reading at these places? Like, I think about the religious texts that she had access to. Can you tell me anything about what her influences would have been?
James: It’s obvious that her love of manuscripts would have started at these courts. For example she must have read works of Christina and others, sorry I’m stumbling a bit.
Heather: No, it’s fine, I just kind of threw that out there, but even the early reformation works that wouldn’t have made it to England yet, she would have had access to that, right? She would have been able to read it even as a woman because she was with these powerful women, right?
James: Yes, it could have been when she first came across Tyndale and things like that. You tend to imagine her like one of the gatherings of Margaret De Yolande in the discussions there, with her sharp intellect, which she had. It just feels so wrong to think of her not taking part of that.
Of course, she was a lady-in-waiting and Margaret Yolande was a sister of the King of France. You kind of think, especially from letters from when Anne was Queen and how she wishes she would meet Margaret again, there must have been some relationship. So she must have been involved and read the exact works that would have been in the library of Margaret.
Even earlier Margaret of Austria, this was like her coming of age period. She must have read all the stuff that hadn’t made it over to England. When she came back to England and when she first appeared at court, she was completely different to all the other English ladies. She stood out for her dress sense, her intellect, her -I’m struggling to find the word now–
Heather: Her je ne sais quoi.
James: Yeah exactly. It’s a fascinating time really.
Heather: As you research Anne, what has been your biggest, kind of, eye-opening discovery? That maybe you might have believed something about her and then you find something different that surprised you? Tell me a little bit about how your relationship with her evolved.
James: I think, to me, I’m still learning very much now. My big interest is her role in the Reformation. It’s something I’m starting to delve deeper into now so I really want to understand that a bit more and the Reformation in itself. I think the more you read about her and the more you read about her connections to bishops and other big figures in the Reformation and how they were very much part of her support faction and then you hear stories.
One of my favorites is the story of Hailes Abbey. When she and Henry were staying in Sudeley Castle, she was the one who initiated the investigations of the supposed Holy Relic that was there, which never really gets touched on, never gets mentioned, and it’s such a shame because I think that her role in that is so underplayed.
Heather: Yeah and then also once the Reformation happens, her relationship with Cromwell falling apart because of going too far in a sense, with dissolving all the monasteries.
James: Indeed, and I think that’s another thing, similar to the feminist title, people often label her as a Protestant. But back then the likes between Catholic and Protestant were not as clear and distinct as they would later become. Who knows what would have happened had she lived another more years. But that’s another thing I’m slightly hesitant, when people start giving her that title, I think we have to look at a more Evangelical start, would probably be the best way to swipe her, her religion, and the religion of that time, the Reformation was still in its very early stages.
Heather: Yeah, it’s like you didn’t have that understanding of Protestant and Catholic. It was like Transubstantiation and the miracle of the mass, and where do you fall on those lines. But it wasn’t necessarily “I’m a Protestant, I’m a Catholic.” She definitely had such a role with that, it was almost like this perfect storm, wasn’t it? With her?
James: It’s a story you couldn’t make up really. Here’s a girl who’s not a Princess by birth, she goes off to the courts of Europe, she comes back to England, a few years later she catches the eye of the King and then he decides he wants her as mistress but then he wants to marry her and there’s this whole turbulent period and then, at the end, you’ve got the execution which is a bit like, someone once described it as the story of Arthur and Guinevere. But unlike the story of Guinevere where she’s saved at the last minute, Anne is executed, and that incredible kind of world, how did it all changed so quickly?
But then about years after that you’ve got the story of her daughter coming to the throne and very much defining female monarchs forever. In many respects as many people say, she was the most successful of all Henry’s children and it’s the irony of it all. It’s not the son that he wanted, it’s the daughter he had with Anne Boleyn and ended up being one of the most successful monarchs in British history. it’s all part of that story that pieces together. I don’t think that if you were writing a fictional drama, you could even make that sort of stuff up, it’s just incredible.
Heather: Going back to the girl and she’s coming home and catching the attention of the King, there’s a lot of debate around how her family and her father, did they push her into this or was she scheming at it? What do you think about, there’s even so much people that say she was pimped out and stuff like that. I’m curious what your opinion is about that and just talking a little bit about how you think she felt about Henry especially in those early stages.
James: I really do feel sorry for Anne’s father, I think he gets an even worse deal than Anne really. I don’t think it’s fair when people say that he pimped her out. Thomas Boleyn was already a successful courter. He was already riding high at court in favor of the King. So I don’t see why he would want two of his daughters to become mistresses.
There’s even a report that I always like to mention which kind of hints that he’d never come out in favor of this whole great matter of the marriage between Anne and Henry. I think that from this perspective there was this worry of “Is this actually going to happen?” because there were some stumbling blocks along the way. If it didn’t happen and the relationship fell apart, he would have had two daughters who would have been discarded as mistresses of the King and that would not have gone well for him at all.
By that stage as well her daughter Anne would have been beyond the age of the marriage market. She would have been considered old in the Tudor times and he couldn’t have arranged a good marriage for her. So I don’t agree with the famous story that he pimped his daughters out at all. It’s such an intrigue, the whole Anne going back. She had marriage contracts and things all fell apart.
I started thinking that in the early days that she no doubt would have enjoyed the attention of anybody. Anybody would have enjoyed the attention, especially of the King. I know that this is where another debate comes in because, as you said, people either see her as this scheming who sets out to become Queen or they see her as this harassed victim by Henry. I think probably it’s somewhere in the middle of that.
She certainly wouldn’t have wanted to become a mistress like her sister. We know she turned that down. I don’t think she would have expected, or anyone would have expected the King to marry her. I know people often put the words into her mouth a little bit that she then set out and said “if you make me a wife instead.” In those days the hierarchy and everything, you’ve got God and the King and everyone thought the King was God’s anointed, God’s representative on earth.
I kind of feel that that’s bordering into the feminist title that people think of today a little bit. It’s almost that they say “Would she have been that daring to speak to a King like that?” Maybe she could have lost her head a bit sooner or something. But when the crown is offered, who is going to turn that down? It’s an incredible advancement for herself, for her family and by that stage, you can’t turn down an offer like that.
Heather: So do you think she had any kind of affection for him? Do you think she was ever in love with him? Or it was more like pragmatic?
James: It’s so frustrating that we don’t have any of the letters. They all seem to have been destroyed or lost or something. I think she must have had some affection for him and there’s certainly some evidence later on that, as the relationship was progressing as well, that there was some affection returned from her to him. So I think there must have been some affection there in that relationship.
Certainly they were so closely together that he treated her as an equal and they were constantly in each other’s company. So I don’t think that it was just… from her point of view it was all about the greed and the power; and for him I don’t think it was the obsession always either. He genuinely seems to, certainly in the early days he genuinely appreciated her input. It’s hard because people always judge history backwards. But really they were a great match for each other.
Heather: Yeah, definitely on a personal level at least, that kind of gets me nicely into her downfall. The obvious part is that she had a daughter and then she miscarried. So there was that whole stuff, and then the political landscape changing and then people saying her personality was great as a mistress but not as a wife and there’s a lot of different elements that go into it. How do you get in three years from marriage and coronation to [mimics decapitation] how do you do that?
James: I think that is the reason why her story is so fascinating. I don’t think there will ever be a time when her story is not being constantly printed in biographies or fiction books or t.v. dramas or theater plays because I think everyone wants to put forward their own opinion and research it for themselves.
It’s so fascinating. it’s just so bizarre. The whole change and the mentality in that, there’s all sorts of theories. Was it the fact that she couldn’t have a son and there had been miscarriages? Was it the fact that Henry then had his accident and he wasn’t of the right frame of mind afterwards? It was this plot that was put against her so convincing and it was seen as a chance to really get her out of the way, how she’d become dangerous.
One thing I feel quite strongly on, it’s very popular in fiction that their relationship started going wrong after she gave birth to a daughter and not the son that was so promised and so hopeful for. But we know from later records, particularly the lower progress 1535, that they were pretty much… they had come back to the early days again and they were very much in love. They were constantly together. Even reports from Chapuys himself say that yes, they would argue but they would passionately make up afterwards.
So it’s this temperamental relationship but it seems to have gone fairly well up until the last few months. Who knows really what the actual answer to what was going on. Maybe I’m sitting on the fence a little bit, but I kind of think it was a combination of all of these things going on: her miscarriage, Henry’s accident, and then of course, the case of her falling out with Cromwell. It all must have come together. I think it’s too easy to have one answer. I think that when you look at the evidence it must have been all of these things coming together that caused it.
Heather: Can you tell me a little bit about her relationship with Cromwell and how that evolved or devolved?
James: I always feel that Anne and Cromwell, looking at the evidence and from what I’ve researched into, they both come across very similar. They both come across as people who stand out a bit more from the crowd at court. Both very sharp intellectuals. Both seem to be slightly bit weary of other people, and having their own kind of thoughts. Both wanting to be at that position of authority with the King.
It certainly seems in the early days they could work very well together. But I do think that it seems to have disintegrated because of that. Both of their ambitions obviously came to clash. It seems they were just too similar, and it seems that it came to them that in the end only one could survive. There was only room for one of them and Cromwell seems to have gotten there first.
Heather: Can you tell me a little about the history of how she has been portrayed? I know you’ve written and talked a bit about her portrayal in the media. If you can talk a little bit about how that also has evolved and changed. A hundred years ago the portrayal of her is different than it is today.
James: Anne has evolved with the change in attitudes at times, and certainly after her execution, you have this period of time where she’s erased or she’s forgotten about, or she is mentioned, particularly in Mary’s reign not in a positive light. Then of course, we’ve got of course Elizabeth coming to the throne, her memory is restored and she becomes a lot more celebrated. She’s the mother of the Queen and that’s kind of when she suddenly gets transformed into this sort of protestant hero, this protestant martyr, and in other times you have this change.
For the Victorians she becomes this romantic victim, the lady in the Tower. There’s a romantic side to the story that comes out. Then you go on later to like the 1960s’ and Anne of a Thousand Days and in the feminist craze you can tell that that very much influences the film. Genevieve Bujold’s portrayal is phenomenal, but you can tell it’s very much influenced by the feminist ideas of the time.
Then it evolved again to, the kind of, the mean girl portrayal, and The Other Boleyn Girl and everything like that. She is definitely someone who has… with the change in attitudes of times or what’s the view of the time towards women seems to have a big influence on how she is portrayed in novels, or in the media basically.
Heather: She’s almost like a weathervane or something. So why does Anne deserve her own society? Why is she worth studying and why is her story still lingering with us? Why does she have her own society?
James: The idea really came about to me around the time of the whole announcement of the bones that were found in Leicester were Richard III and a shout out here to Sarah Morris who’s co-author of the book In The Footsteps of Anne Boleyn and is currently running the Tudor Travel Guide. I remember on a page that she was running at the time that she happened to mention “Why doesn’t Anne Boleyn have a society? She would have lots of members,” and it kind of made me think “Yeah, I think she would”.
I talked about her and then, in the end, I remember contacting her and she was ever so supportive and she gave wonderful ideas and then I said “You know what, I’ll just set it up and see how it goes,” and it’s taken off. I’m so pleased that kind of happened really, so that’s how it came about.
I think Anne certainly deserves her own society because, similar to Richard III, you’ve these two completely different viewpoints about her and I do feel she is misunderstood and misrepresented at times. I think it’s a time to debate and discuss her life but also celebrate her role and the fact that she did have this huge impact on history.
I know some people who think that I’m romanticizing her a little bit by doing that and maybe I am, but I do very much believe that she had a huge role in history. There’s so much debate about her and that should continue. Debate about everyone should continue as it does, but there’s not much celebrating of all that that goes on, and what is not completely looked at is what role she had in history, the impact. That is something that I’m very passionate about bringing out a bit more.
Heather: So, other than the English church and breaking away from the Pope, and having her daughter, and all of that minor stuff. What is her impact on British history?
James: It seems that she was such an intelligent woman and she was a huge promoter of the arts, manuscripts and everything and being involved in the politic side of things. That’s not to say that we haven’t had women and Queens that have done that, but I think that she certainly helps at that standard at the time, certainly for consorts. I do feel that she had a role in helping adapt that role of the consort and they weren’t merely a sidekick and had babies and produced the heirs and everything. I think that’s something she should be celebrated for more.
Heather: It’s interesting because I’ve often heard Catherine of Aragon described at the sort of “last medieval Queen” as it were and Anne Boleyn as the first modern Queen, and I don’t know that that necessarily always fits. Because you have Eleanor d’Aquitaine and people like that which is this idea of the woman as the child-bearer, and she’s the peacemaker and the child-bearer and she burst through that.
James: Definitely, and you said that there had been Queens before that a certain role as the peacemaker or the child bearer, you already said Eleanor d’Aquitaine, Isabella of France, they were all these incredible women. You can’t not include her in that set of these incredibly intelligent women who had a role, not necessarily in promoting women’s interest at the time, because that wasn’t something of the time, but unknowingly it very much seems to have very much helped adapt that. Which is why people nowadays look back on that and see that as an inspiration for what they can continue today, and what has continued since really.
Heather: She’s kind of like the high Queen, with Elizabeth, after her it doesn’t really get much better in that.
James: It doesn’t, her daughter obviously goes on to become Queen, I also once heard this great quote from Tracy Broam that says “Elizabeth was able to be the Queen her mother wasn’t able to be.” She took the best sides from both her parents and often she very much modeled herself on her father. Her father was the King and he was respected.
So to do that was just genius really, but she seems to have taken on the best of both of her parents and adapt to that and to become such a successful monarch in her own right is incredible. Again, she is another figure who you look at as this incredible monarch and set the standard for female monarchs after that.
Heather: That’s amazing, that’s an awesome high note to finish. Where can people know about you and your work, and know more about the Anne Boleyn Society and with you?
James: The Anne Boleyn Society is on Facebook, and that’s where most of the discussions take place. People can message me anytime through there. I’m also on Twitter and my username is @anneboleynsoc and the same on Instagram. I’m contactable on all three of those platforms, that’s where I post the most on, mainly on Facebook and Instagram. That’s where I’m more able to be contacted.
But anyone who wishes to contact me I’m more than happy, I regularly post book recommendations, not necessarily just on Anne, on the period in general and I’m also up for discussion and debate and everything.
Heather: Awesome. You’ve been so generous with your time, and I really have loved speaking with you. I know that this is probably going to get some big debates started when people watch this [Laughs] so we’ll have fun with that. Thank you so much for taking the time, for being so generous and for sharing so much about Anne with us.
James: Thank you so much for having me, it’s an absolute honor to be part of this.
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