A few weeks ago I stumbled on a book called The Secret Diaries of Juan Luis Vives by Tim Darcy Ellis. I had heard about Juan Luis Vives as the tutor of Mary Tudor, and his beliefs on the education of women, but I had never read anything specifically about him. So I read it, and it was a beautiful experience.
For a time I thought that Tim was a native Spanish speaker because the way he writes (though it’s in English) is the way I hear English when it’s spoken to me here in Spain. I just had to talk to him, and find out more about his thought process, and how he wrote the book.
The prose flows beautifully – it’s one of those books where you can tell that the words have been carefully chosen. And while there were some theories in it that I thought may have been on the imaginative side, that’s kind of what historical fiction is there for, and overall I loved this book, and you should definitely read it.
VERY Rough Draft of Episode 153: Tim Darcy Ellis on Juan Luis Vives
Heather: (00:11)
Hello, and welcome to the Renaissance English history podcast. I’m your host, Heather Tesco. And I’m a storyteller who makes history accessible because I believe it’s a pathway to understanding who we are, our place in the universe, and being more deeply in touch with our own humanity. This is episode 153, I believe. And it’s the post tutor con I haven’t written an episode interview episode, and I want to tell you who it is and why I wanted to interview him. So this is Tim Darcy Ellis, and he wrote a book called the secret diary of one loose fetus. And I saw it and I thought I have to read this book because you know, anything that starts with secret diary sounds fun. And Juan Luis Vives, he pops up from time to time. I’m talking specifically about the education of Mary tutor because he was her tutor.
But beyond that, very little is known about him. And so I was like, what is this? And it’s historical fiction. So it’s not 100% completely true. But I started reading it and it was a really good book. And so I wanted to interview the author and he was kind enough to do a little zoom chat with me, in my group, in the tutor learning circle group, which you can find out more about live chats@tutorlearningcircle.com. So, anyway, I want to post that interview now, and we start off with me asking him why he chose Juan Luis Vivces to write about. I hope you enjoy the interview as much as I enjoyed reading his book, and you should totally check out his book. It’s really, really good. Alright, here we go.
Tim Ellis: (01:58)
He’s just really like a side note. You know, he’s a bystander, he crops up a little bit, you know, tutoring, princess Mary, but we don’t really look into him. So I think you can look at that whole tutor narrative and the great stories without really encountering purveyors. but for me, I discovered him, I’ve got a good friend here and I was giving him a book called this inherited by Henry Carmen about the exiles from Spain and, with the context of his family, having fled the Franco regime and the, in the, in the sixties coming to Australia. And because I have a specific interest in Sephardic Jews and Jewish history, I just thumb through the back. And I looked at Sephardic Jews and there was Juan Luis, never really heard of him. I thought I’m going to look into that. And you know, when you start to look at his philosophies, he really does come across as a man ahead of his time in terms of what he’s saying about the, of a woman being just as important as the education of a man.
Tim: (03:04)
He talks even about the rights and the care of animals. You know, he talks about the poor being the concern of the state, rather than just being left to the concern of the church. And he talks about the mentally ill and how some people need treatment for their mental illness. And he talks even about sort of, you know, terms that we are familiar with now, post traumatic stress disorder. He doesn’t talk about it like that, but that is what he’s talking about. So I guess when I, came across him and I found that those were the things that he was saying 500 years ago, which are the things that we’re talking about now, or at least we should be talking about now, you know, he started to get interesting. And then when I got into the detail of his life, you know, but one the same year as the decree of Alhambra, in which the Jews were expelled from Spain permanently, or almost permanently until very recently, coming from that confessor family background, I thought this story is going to get interesting.
Tim Ellis: (04:05)
And so reading about his family and his journey through Europe, I started to get a sense of what an interesting life and what a great man he was. And so I just, the weld, you know, there must be a book about this guy, you know, there must be a specific book, not just the, academic books that we can find, you know, that are, that are great, but they’re rather heavy going. so I’m like, so where’s the novel, where’s my intro. You know, where’s the film, perhaps it’s in Spanish, you know, and just realizing that there wasn’t a film, that there was no novel. And I said, Oh, well, I’ve got to got to do that before somebody beats me to it. So that was kind of my intro into one. Louis is. Yeah,
Speaker 3: (04:46)
That’s amazing. So yeah, you know, it’s interesting because a lot of times his story, or maybe people who have more of a, of an interest is from entertainment, tend to put things in, in boxes. So, you know, England was England and that’s what was going on there. And yet there was so much more happening obviously in the world and, that, that influenced with Katherine of Aragon. And so, understanding these relationships and I think you do a good job of showing how Henry the eighth felt about, Jewish people and, you know, his more tolerance, but so can you explain, just so we have a backstory, you mentioned the decree of Alhambra and 1492 and all of that. Can you give me a sense of the inquisition and where it reached to, and, you know, it’s funny cause it’s, I have a hard time saying Spanish inquisition without going into Monte Python. This is what he expects the Spanish inquisition. Our chief weapon is surprise. but you know, it kind of was, so can, can you tell me a little bit about what the, the brief Spanish inquisition from the context of English and what
Speaker 1: (05:58)
The English people would have known about it and how it would have impacted that?
Tim Ellis: (06:02)
Sure. Well, I guess the Jews have been living in Spain since you just after the day, you know, that the expulsion from, from Jerusalem, you know, so living really in Spain for, you know, sort of 14, 1500 years, if not, if not more price, the final decree of Columbia, you know, as you said, but I guess the inquisition had been brewing for quite some time. It didn’t just come along in, in 1492 and they were going to put groms and massacres going back into the 14th century. So by the time you get into the, the late 15th, you know, the golden age of, you know, Muslim Christian, Jewish, Spain with all that great flourishing of literature and art had kind of gone, you know, we were kind of getting into a, into a monoculture and there had been great pressure on the, on the Spanish Jews to convert, you know, for, for several hundred years before the final to create Alhambra was passed.
Tim Ellis: (06:51)
And, you know, we know that the various families, his mother’s family, his mother was called blanking a March, that she converted very late in the day was 1491. So it was just one year before the decree. so his family maintain that Jewish tradition quite late on in, in, in, in the piece. And we never know quite how genuine those conversions were. Some of them seem to be a hundred percent genuine. Some of them seem to be not genuine at all. And, and some Jews were practicing secretly through really, you know, we can see from the Belmonte Jews in Portugal through to the 1960s, 1970s, you know, they just kind of came out there. And so there’s everything on that sliding scale, I guess, when it comes to England and the Jewish history that you use of being expelled, in 1219.
Tim Ellis: (07:41)
So there hadn’t really been in the official Jewish population in England, but, but we know through looking at the records that the Jews came and went, and there was a, the [inaudible], which is in Chancery lane and it wasn’t transferring lane, in, in, in London was a house foot for sort of repentant Jews. and they kept coming through and there are names of, of English, Jewish people who sort of submitted themselves to Domus and tightened care of there. So there was a small Jewish presence. and before Henry VII allowed Catherine to, to marry our Prince Arthur, that there must’ve been a Jewish presence in London because he says to, Henry, I will not allow you to marry Catherine and tell you, get rid of the school that they have the Spanish Jews who have made their home in England.
Tim Ellis: (08:35)
And he says, okay, done, I’ll get rid of them. You know, there’s no evidence of any sort of pogrom or English inquisition, you know, and by the time we get to later on to, to Henry the eighth rain, we can definitely see pockets of Jewish people in London. There’s the end years family. And we get names, the Levi’s, the Colin’s, you know, fairly convincing Jewish Jewish names. And in that context, often masquerading as, a merchant, you necessarily need spice traders, you know, in the pepper industry, you know, the pepper trade going through to the, what became the East India. So, so there was a small Jewish population in, in London at the time of Henry. and, you know, it’s thought that, you know, up to 19 of his court musicians were Jewish. you know, yeah. And so, so you said that definitely was a small population there in, in, in, in England. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (09:28)
And it, it’s interesting that your book, you know, how sometimes when you find a book, then you go like suddenly they all appear and Jewish people in medieval history have just been popping up for me, not just your book, but, the guy CJ Sampson who wrote the Matthew and he started like mysteries. He has one, that’s not Matthew Shardlake, but it’s, it’s called the sacred stone. And it traces the stone that was, fell in Greenland and the places where it went and it’s considered magic stone. And it wound up in Norritch in a family of Jewish people who, the markings on it, they thought it was Hebrew markings. And so it was thought that it had these magical powers. And, and so I was reading more about the Jewish experience in North during that time. And that, there was a large population there too. So it seems like there there’s been this Jewish history in England and it was kind of a push and pull where the Monarch was able to use them for money lending and things like that. But then when it got too bad, they expelled them.
Tim Ellis: (10:26)
Absolutely. You know, and I think, what was Aaron, Evelyn can, you know, in 1290, he was the richest man in England, you know, Henry the second, owed him the equivalent of billions of dollars pounds, you know, you’re, I was whatever we call it now. So, you know, it was actually quite convenient just for him to not pay that debt, get rid of him and get rid of the whole people, you know, and I think this was part of, you know, the, the thing in Spain as well, you know, the, the Jewish population they’re often very wealthy. The previous family came from a long line of woolen cloth merchants, you know, there, there was welfare, you know, so I’m not saying that was the only thing that was going on, but, you know, it was, it was pretty important, I think is a reason why that they got rid of from all those countries throughout Europe, you know, from, from the middle East, from the 13th century onwards. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3: (11:16)
Okay. So then bringing it back to one Luis, how did he, can you explain kind of his early life and how he wound up meeting Thomas More and yeah.
Tim Ellis: (11:26)
Yeah, sure. So he won, let me see you guys, he was appointed 49, 200 Valencia, and he had a very good education. He came from a long line of very well educated people. And, you know, he talks about his time in school and it was very dialectic. It was very argument to, you know, he says that, that the boys have wrangled at breakfast. They rankled at lunch, they wrangled in the playing fields, you know, they wrangled in the switching room, whatever that was, you know, probably some sort of sword or something in the way, but for cleanliness. and, and so, you know, these argumentative discussive kind of, background and what was, what was, why he was brought out with, you know, almost reminds me of Shiva as in, in, in, in Israel, you know, where the young, we see the young Orthodox boys discussing every little, you know, mine, UTI of tour.
Tim Ellis: (12:12)
And I think that was his childhood and that was his education discovering every mind UTI that the Bible and also the, the rest. And there, there were nice arms, you know, looking at Plato and Aristotle again. So it came from a very well educated background, but, in 1,509 he left Spain and he never went back. He went to university and the Sorbonne in Paris. And, you know, it was probably just that, that increasing pressure of the inquisition, his father had already been arrested. You know, his arm had been burned to the stake, you know, constantly swear arrested. I think the pressure just got really, really intense. You know, he got away out there. There was still money in the family. Obviously the, the, the, the family paid for the education in the sample. So upon, and he stayed there for five or six years, before going on to university and Lou van, and they don’t want to bruise.
Tim Ellis: (13:01)
So by the time the action starts in my normal, you know, he’s, he’s, he’s established and bruised brewed, and he’s teaching the sons of the nobility and he’s conversing with Erasmus and he’s conversing with, with Thomas More. And, you know, there’s some thinking that he may have met to Thomas More at the field of the cloth of gold. So he may have been acting as an interpreter. and as Thomas More was, but, but certainly by sort of 1521, they knew each other, they had met and they had this great sort of collaboration and meeting of minds, you know, and more says that no one said policies with theirs in terms of the quality and measure a few studies. so you know, that, that, that, that more traveled to, to the low countries, you know, to Flanders really quite often, you know, people were, but I think we’re more mobile across that part of the, of the channel more than I’d realized until I did all this, this, this research.
Tim Ellis: (13:55)
Yeah. So he was, you know, he was there 15, you know, in the early 1520s and because of, of, of Thomas more’s close connection with the Royal family, you know, Henry and with Catherine, with princess Mary, he was looking for someone to really take over that, that tutoring of a princess, Mary. So that’s why he invited, the FES over to England. And he went over in 1523, and took up a position at the university of Oxford. You know, he became known as, dr. John Lewis of Oxford. It was like the English couldn’t get their head around a Lewis. and soon after became true to princess mirror,
Heather: (14:33)
That’s, that’s awesome. So I, it reminded when you said about John Luis and your writing, you write in this very stream of conscious- it’s the secret diary. And so you write it the way people would write. but I think it’s interesting. I, I wanted to ask you about your Spanish because you write in, I live in Spain, you write in English the way Spanish people talk in English to me. so it’s, it was very dramatic and it’s very the, and just the way the sentence structure is it looked as if it had been translated from Spanish to English. And so I, yeah, and I wanted to ask you about the way you wrote it. And the, I saw on your acknowledgements, you did acknowledge somebody for Spanish translation. Do you have a background in Spanish?
Tim Ellis: (15:19)
People think I’m Spanish that they say, I look Spanish, I X, but I’m not actually Spanish. but I think when it comes to, [inaudible] and I think they say our, my father’s family, we know that, but, well, my mother’s family, the Aleisha family, you know, was Sephardic Jews that lived in that part of London. We’re going back quite a few generations. but I think when it came to trying to channel the phase, I really wanted to do him justice. So I just read just about everything I could about for, and I read so many books about medieval, Spain and Spain during this period. And, it was like being a character actor really, you know, I kind of had to, I went out very early in the morning before sunrise, I walked my dog, get my energy, and then I would just channel him and I’d write for a couple of hours, like, keep that energy going for a couple of hours. And then I’d just be done. I’d have to leave it until the next time. So it was really trying to channel everything I learned. And I played Spanish music in the background, and I’d even listened to Spanish film on Spanish radio in the background. And I’m like, not even understand what was going on, but I’d really try and channel that, that Spanish energy. So it’s lovely to hear that that’s come across.
Heather: (16:30)
It really did. I wondered whether you had initially written it in Spanish and then translated it because it, it read so much the way Spanish people talk in English to me. So, yeah. So we’ve got him then going to Oxford and I wanted to ask you at this point, then his, his educational theories about women, if you could just share a little bit about what made him so radical.
Tim Ellis: (16:58)
Sure. I mean, I think that whole thing, when we look back from 2020 eyes, you know, it doesn’t seem that radical, but when you look to that period, you know, it certainly, it certainly was that the education of a woman is as important as the education of a man and that she should be taught any of those, those traditional skills like dance, music, embroidery, but, but really much wider so that he was talking to any teaching princess, Mary, about the writings of Erasmus and Stan was more utopia. but also Aristotle, Plato, through talk, you know, the, the great classical philosophers. So it was very important for him to, to teach her about, about these great philosophers and also, language, you know, so he wanted to teach her Greek and Latin, which did you know, is that by the time she was nine, she catched, you writes letter in Latin and, you know, and she was a very, very bright child.
Tim Ellis: (17:57)
Um, so you know, a lot of aspects to education, grammar, vocabulary, astronomy, mathematics, philosophy, a really wide ranging, really wide ranging education book here, you know, that has devoted to, to Catherine of Erica and the education of a Christian woman, which you’ve wrote, you know, quite, quite substantial about that time. What about when he was going to teach princess Mary? There was just sort of the beginning of it. I thought I might just, just, just read the opening paragraph is dedication to Catherine. If you don’t mind. I, moved by the holiness of your life. This is to, to, to Katherine of Aragon XEO for sacred studies. I have endeavored to write something for your majesty on the education of a woman, a subject of paramount important, but one that has not been treated here, the two by anyone among the great multitude and diversity of talented writers of the past for what is so necessary as the spiritual formation of those who are, are inseparable companions in every condition of life with good reason, Aristotle says that those States that do not provide for the proper education of women deprive themselves of a great part of their prosperity.
Tim Ellis: (19:19)
So, you know, again, going back to that, Mary Stokley and kind of ethics, you know, that, that, that, that the role of a woman is just as important as the role of a man. And probably, you know, by the time he’s tutoring Mary, it looks like there’s less likelihood of more children arriving to Catherine and Henry anyway, you know, and so the possibility that this person would become the queen regnant, so taking that role very, very seriously.
Heather: (19:48)
And I wanted to ask you your, your position on Mary, because you kind of hint at her later becoming, you know, much more intolerant. and, and I have a very soft spot in my heart for Mary, because I think she had a really crappy life. but, and I wanted to ask you, like, you have her saying a couple of things early on about, you know, she wanted to burn people or, you know, wanting to punish people. Do you think that she really would have had that stamps that early? And if so, like, can you explain, elaborate a little bit about your thoughts on her?
Tim Ellis: (20:22)
Yeah, I mean, I am not like you, I mean, I have a soft spot for Mary and for probably for quite a few of the characters that don’t come across quite so flattered in, in, in, in the novel. but I think she was isolated quite early on, I think, you know, that, that she was living in Ludlow and, and it was, it was cold and dark and, and I think she felt abandoned by her parents. So I feel that sense of anger sort of developed quite early on. And I think what I read is is that she also had another side to her that she had that sort of sense of humor as well. And that, that she was, could be quite a naughty girl and she preferred playing games, you know, to her studies. And I think there’s tried to bring her back into her studies, but I just get the impression that the seed was sown of sort of feeling like abandonment quite early on. And then when we get to the later parts of, into the late to 1520s, when unbelievers is coming through and influence in the court and the bone infection, so not quite so much in the early 1520s, but the later parts of the book, she started to get really angry about what’s happening to her mother and her potential future role in the realm.
Heather: (21:38)
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I just, when I hear about the way she treated Elizabeth, when Elizabeth was motherless and, you know, she could have been so horrible to her and yet she was so kind to her and was so gentle with her and it’s just like, Oh, Mary, I love you. You get such a bond.
Tim Ellis: (21:57)
Yeah. Reading about, Edwards, coronation, you know, and, and, Mary and Elizabeth Ann Ann of cleaves rode in together. And that’s just the most lovely picture that you get. Yeah.
Speaker 1: (22:09)
Shame. You just want to freeze that moment. but you talked about the, her psychology and I think that is a good segue into Vivas and his, they call him the father of modern psychology or, you know, one of the, one of the giants. and in your book, you show him going to Bedlam and, you know, kind of being interested in that well, during your whole novel. So can you explain to me a little bit about his theories on psychology? Yeah,
Tim Ellis: (22:39)
Absolutely. He was very interested in, observation. So, so very much like psychoanalysis really, and just sitting back and looking at people’s body language, their mood and their effect. So, you know, really that I don’t know of any earlier reference to that way of engaging in some kind of medical dialect with, with another, you know, so I think this is why he’s, he’s known as the godfather of, of psychoanalysis. So it was very, very astute powers of observation, not, not just others, but also of himself. He has that ability to write about himself and the sadnesses of what happened to his family as if he’s looking from the outside in. and you know, and he writes about you, like I’ve mentioned earlier, what we’d say is in modern terms is posttraumatic stress disorder. So he writes about how one can be going about one’s life and see something triggering that takes the person back to an event that happened when they were a child on the whole physical manifestation of that takes over, you know, and I’ve aspects of him having sort of some sort of feet, you know, in, in the book when he sees things and smells things that tricking him because he wrote about that.
Tim Ellis: (23:54)
And I think it’s also quite interesting and he mentioned, what I think we would probably call addictions, you know, in, in, in the modern language about great passions. And if you have a great passion that you can’t resist, that’s causing you harm in your life. You need to replace that with another great passionate. That’s not so harmful. So, you know, really, you know, really interesting that in the 1520s is talking about post traumatic stress disorder. He’s talking about psychoanalysis and perhaps talking about addiction as well. Yeah, yeah.
Heather: (24:28)
And you, you have him then, and that is segues into my question about his relationship with the more family and a particular more daughter, because he goes to Bedlam with Margaret Roper, and you have them having, and I don’t want to give too much away, but they have quite a close relationship. Can you talk a little bit about where you got that from? Is that completely sorted up or is there some, some background on that that you can share?
Tim Ellis: (24:58)
Well, I believe there is some background about, I mean, I read an article some years ago from the best conference in 2005. I think that the rice name is usually in all of arrow. And, he wrote, and it’s a fascinating paper and he kind of suggests that there was some form of relationship between vez and make car. and he’s quite interesting. He’s very tactful the way he says it. He says, I don’t want to suggest anything, but he doesn’t quite go as far to say that they were having an affair and there’s no direct evidence, but there’s writes about all the children of the more what’s with the greatest respect and greatest admiration. And we know that he stayed with the malls, firstly buckled spree house in the right, in the city of London. And then later in the later past of booking in Chelsea, when they’d moved out the city down to Chelsea.
Tim Ellis: (25:51)
And so he did stay with the family and there’s one letter where he references very cryptically, his affection for Margaret More or Margaret Roper, you know, she’s known by her, by her married name. and you know, it seemed when he’d publish a book, she’d publish a book. It was almost like, sort of what I know I can do, you know, I can do, but you can do, I can do better. you know, and so there’s some suggestion that they were still almost like competitive with each other on an intellectual level, but had a great deal of affection and respect for each other. And we know that he visited hospitals and he was known as dr. Pervez, Cardinal Woolsey, according to dr. [inaudible] because he was unbelief Lewis with his language, his speech, as she was, you know, also notice that the most intellectual, the, the greatest woman of her time in terms of intellect, which so think it was a real meeting of meeting of minds. And just that suggestion from the paper that there may have been some kind of more connection where like, you know, I wanted to explore that and write that in the novel.
Heather: (26:55)
Yeah. And it, it adds a attention to it.
Tim Ellis: (26:58)
Yeah.
Heather: (27:00)
And development. And I wanted to ask then about his relationship with Thomas More because Thomas More is not known for being particularly, I don’t know, tolerant of different people, especially later on. So can you share a little bit about how you developed that relationship and what kind of, struggles you had with making it work and all of that?
Tim Ellis: (27:26)
Yeah. I wanted to develop the great banter between the great man, you know, and I, I wanted that to be an enjoyable part of the book for readers, that they were trying to outdo each other with their weight, but also that it always ended on a good note. It always ended in humor, you know, confess, it says, you know, he was just such a great friend to me that he’s been put on this earth for the purpose of friendship. You know, it was really lovely sort of quote from the best, the best conduct, these wonderful quotes they’re really quite, quite moving. but, as we know, later on, you know, more became increasingly intolerant, you know, and increasingly paranoid. and the main focus of his attention was, was against the Protestant faction. But, you know, he also probably was becoming increasingly antisemitic as well. And so that tension is kind of written into the, the book and, and a bit of sort of, you know, distancing later on in, in, in, in the novel. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.
Heather: (28:27)
Um, and then I, I wanted to ask you about the Boleyn sisters because you show him meeting them early on in France and then later on, and it seemed like the timeline with, and I said this, and when I emailed you and my questions and her plotting and, and becoming a rising part at court was a little earlier than other things that I’ve read. And I kind of wanted to ask you, where you, like, how you developed that and what, what the thought process was.
Tim Ellis: (29:01)
If we assume Adam was born in 1,501, you know, she would have been sort of 22 by the time that, you know, they meet in England, but they were both in, in Paris at the same time in, in 1514. I think that, that I had was, you know, in the, in the court of queen chord and it’s thought that they both were influenced by Margaret of Navarre, who was the sister of the French King from SIS. And, so it may well be that they met in Paris, that they were aware of each other that I’m sure they were aware of each other, they hadn’t met. So I’ve written it in, you know, some early meeting there. and, and I guess, you know, in, in, by 1523, when they meet again in, in England and his, his betrothed to Thomas Murphy, Percy, and that didn’t go anywhere because I think her uncle intervened or prevented the marriage from, from, from going ahead. But I think coming from the background that she came from and knowing what we know about, and it could well be that she was trying to increase her social standing and her chances of developing it need even higher role in the future. At that time, it is a bit early in the narrative. but like to Roman, when the base goes back to England and in the late 1520s, obviously that’s, that’s the high time when with when the bone infection work was sort of coming through.
Heather: (30:20)
Sure. I love these when Anne was in France, these different books, I think Alison Weir has one where she, or no, somebody has one where she potentially met DaVinci because he was there at the same. And I love these little people that am. and you know, when she was, at, potentially meeting all these different musicians and hearing, just scan music originally, I just, I, I love these, these scenes of in doing that. So I, I th I enjoyed that meeting of, of them early on when, when she was young. I liked that. So thank you for putting that in. That was fun. and then I, without giving, again, too much away, I wanted to ask you about this idea of Catherine, of Aragon and her marriage to Arthur, which you bring up some stuff with that. So, you know, I’ll leave it to you, how much you want to say about it, because I don’t want to give everything away, but what you have the, the marriage going further. And, and I guess I just wanted to ask you, well, again, the process of what you’ve read that might’ve suggested, that, and, and kind of what your thinking was there.
Tim Ellis: (31:31)
Yeah. I mean, I, I guess I see no reason why that, that marriage couldn’t have been consummated. I know Catherine denied it later on. but we know for certain that that verus and Catherine were extremely close and that she confided confided in him, things that she didn’t confide in others and Cardinal Woolsey, didn’t like it one little bit. And he really felt they had no right to confidentiality. And, you know, later on ballsy, expelled Pervez from Oxford, really turned against Pervez. And, and so I guess what I’m finding out is that there was this unusual closeness between, queen Catherine and, and, and for bears, especially sort of, you know, from 1520 up to about 1528, 1529. and, and, you know, I wrote in there breaching the confidentiality things between the two of them that she may have confided in into the vase. And, you know, although she denied vehemently that that marriage was ever constant, none of will ever really read, but I need to write in there that, that he knew that that had been, it had been consummated. And that becomes part of the fabric of the, of the plot of the novel bearing in mind. This is, this is historic fiction. Yeah,
Heather: (32:59)
Sure. Now, and I thought it was interesting, the closeness that they did have, and the tension for him, with her being the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella, and how that would have, how that would have been for him talking to this person who was the daughter of the person who killed his family, and how that tension that he would have had in this kind of, for her, she probably would have assumed that he was too well. Maybe you can tell me, like, how did they overcome that, that potential barrier?
Tim Ellis: (33:31)
Yeah, I mean, I think he, he was very, kept very quiet about his Judaism. It was, it was really the only way that people could survive. And we know, you know, then, and after that, that people lived outwardly as, as Christians for many generations, but, but we know that when they got out of Spain or out of Belgium or England, where they were, and got to say, parts of Italy or constant, you know, poor where it was a cater outwardly profess your Judaism, that people went back into Judaism. So I feel that he may have kept those aspects of himself very quiet from, from the queen, one her competence, but I think he had really, really good point, you know, it was because of her parents inaugurating the creative Alhambra that basically won’t be fell, his family be felled them, you know, with, great, you know, Tara and, great consequences for, for the family.
Tim Ellis: (34:33)
And later on in their relationship, there is a kind of parting of the ways. And, you know, one of his last letters to her, he says that my conscience is greater than the conscience of Kings. So I think when he’s out of England, he’s not going back into England. He can kind of let some of that through, but I think all the time he’s in England, he’s got his property, got a vested interest. And perhaps even in her safeguarding, the family that he has left in Spain through her connections and her contacts, you maintaining your sort of really close relationship with her.
Heather: (35:07)
Hmm. Yeah. It made me think about an in, obviously American, this polarized world that we live in now, and people getting divided up into teams and you’re on this side and that means I don’t like you because I’m on this side. But then actually when you come together just as individuals and you build these relationships on an individual level, you decide that actually you do have quite a lot in common and you can overcome that. And it seemed like that was a good example
Speaker 1: (35:38)
Of, of that people. Yeah.
Tim Ellis: (35:40)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.
Heather: (35:42)
Yeah. it seems like your, your book is quite, quite a good book to read at this point with all of the polarization that’s going on, not just in America, but all over the world, to, to remind us all that we’re all human and that we all, you know. Yeah.
Tim Ellis: (36:01)
Um, well, homo sapiens, you know, we, we have to yeah. You know, and, and you know, those things that, that are common, you know, bind us, you know, through these periods of sort of insecurity and difficulty and, you know, I think it is a good, good book to read now. And I think it’s, you know, it’s, he was very anti persecution and anti war, you know, and, yeah,
Heather: (36:32)
Yeah. Be nice to bring him back and have a discussion with him about things happening now. so I’m just looking through my questions here, seeing if there was anything that I, left out. Oh, just kind of his, that he, another struggle that he had for himself, was this, do I choose the easy path or do I choose the hard path of, you know, trying to save my family and trying to make England a place that’s safe for Jewish people? Or can I, should I just go back to my wife and, and should I just go back and live an easy life? And can you explain a little bit maybe about that internal struggle that he had?
Tim Ellis: (37:11)
Yeah, I think he was very, very conflicted. You know, I think you had this, this overriding, you know, they’re talking in Hebrew Tikkun Olam, which means repair of the world. I think he felt that was his duty, you know, to, to repair the world. But I also think that he was very, very badly traumatized by what he saw as a child. And then what later on happened to his family that remained in Spain. So, I think he felt that he had these overriding need and urgency because his life was potentially limited. And generally people didn’t live into their sixties and seventies to get as much in there as, as he possibly could, to do as much as he could. and, and I feel that he wanted to try and create a safe Haven for his family and for his people potential to do what he could to make England a safer place for minorities, not just the Jews, but probably all sorts of minority groups as well.
Tim Ellis: (38:09)
Um, but it came to a point in the end. And again, I don’t want to give too much of the, of the plot of a way where it just became too difficult and he had this sort of one last opportunity to get to safety and, and, and the learner and the temptation of that, you know, was overwhelming. And, and when he got back to, to, to bruise, that was when he settled down and managed to do a lot of his greatest work, you know, in of his writing and, you know, sort of anti church, you know, polemics day that, that he issued of that at that time, you know, and he says to that, he writes the Pope. One of the things I love about the verse is that he lets the big people have it, you know, he wants Henry the eighth against arrogance and that, you know, the, the, the French King was imprisoned, you know, temporarily by, by the Holy Roman empire.
Tim Ellis: (38:57)
And he said, this can happen to you. And for phase wrote to the potency to things I require of you, which is, you know, I think he’s marvelous, you know, one is to sign it, to silence the rush to arms amongst your princess. And the other thing is to silence the, the rush to sedition amongst your people, you know, so it was really at that time when he, when he got back that he could actually get some sort of, surrender to the fact that, you know, his life on earth was, was limited anyway, and that he could actually give fault to some of these great philosophies that have been brewing in, in, in, in his mind all the time.
Tim Ellis: (39:34)
So, interesting. yeah, your background is you were an archeologist for, I studied archeology at the university of York, 85 to 88, and then I worked at the museum of London. and we worked on rescue digs throughout the city. So all these areas, you know, bishops gate, Houndsditch all these areas in the guilt of all these areas that I brought about areas that I know very, very well. You know, my family came from that part of London, you know, the rural sort of outside age of London, you know, hounds ditches is where they leave. Do you know? So I have a brick strong connection with it. I was a tour guide at the British museum in, in the medieval galleries there for a number of years. And I worked on lots of, lots of digs throughout England. You know, I guess in, in the end it became a bit like being an actor.
Tim Ellis: (40:24)
You know, you have a gig for a bit, then you lose your gig. You know, you’re traveling all over the place. And so I became a, I retrained and became a physiotherapist. and that’s what I do now. You don’t have to have a little business here in Sydney. I’ve been here 20 years, but you know, to me, there’s no passion like this love of the, of the past, you know, of, of, of history. And, it’s always been the tutors and the Stuarts, and I’m the tutor end of that spectrum. and I felt that I had nothing more to say about the, the, the well-told stories. and so, you know, just looking at this other angle is, you know, it’s just been lovely for me to have that in back into my fascination, you know, with, with the past and to be able to communicate that, you know, yeah, so it kind of comes full circle in the end. Yeah,
Heather: (41:10)
That’s awesome. Well, you have inspired me to go to Valencia and to learn more about VBS here on the ground. So as soon as COVID stuff dies down and I can get out of, I’m going to make a trip. so thank you for that. is there anything that I missed that you wanted to,
Tim Ellis: (41:32)
I’ve got a little quote verse in the back of the book, which I love, and I hope you don’t mind if I just share it with you before, before we finish. And it probably take me forever to find it. Now, it’s interesting. You’re talking about Valencia monk or ROPO the last letter of her father, the agony of Christ. He sent to her from, from the tower of London and in her will, she leaves, leaves it to a fry in Valencia, which is another sort of aspect of that story is interesting that she leaves it to the home of the VAERS and sort of bays some sort of, you know, testimony to that close relationship that they have. But this is one of the, you know, the, the, the quotes, and it’s not terribly long after from, from, from the last part of his life, at the very end of the book.
Tim Ellis: (42:20)
And he writes, it ought to be the duty of the public officials to take pains, to see that men help one another, that no one is oppressed, no one wronged by an unjust condemnation and that the strong come to the assistance of the weak in order that the harmony of the United body of citizens may grow in love day by day and endure forever. And I just think that, you know, that, that, you know, United body of citizens may grow in love day by day. It was just a lovely quote for these times that we’re, that we’re living in.
Heather: (42:53)
Yeah. That’s really beautiful. What a beautiful man, what a beautiful mind. I’m so glad that I found your book and was able to read more about him. Cause you’ve inspired me, like great historical fiction inspires you to want to dig to the, to the truth behind it. So you’ve inspired me to want to do that with, with BVS here. So thank you for that. we did have Tiffany stop in here. So if Tiffany, if you have any questions, for Tim, you can just raise your hand and I can unmute you, or you can type it in the chat. but if you don’t, I will just assume that you don’t, that’s fine. So, I will, like I said, I’ll put this out on my podcast feed and on my YouTube and all my channels, and I’ll send you links for that. and I, I just, I really am grateful for you for taking the time. I’m grateful for your writing, for writing the book and for bringing this story to light and sharing more about this great man than just the footnote of he was the tutor of Mary. So thank you for that.
Tim Ellis: (43:57)
Thank you so much for inviting me. I’ve really enjoyed this, you know, it’s lovely to have people who are interested enough for me to share this story with. So, you know, thank you very much for making the time and inviting me to your book.
Speaker 3: (44:09)
Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. So, perfect. I think we can,
Tim Ellis: (44:14)
Right.
Speaker 3: (44:16)
And I’ll send you the links when they’re up then. Thank you. Oh, wait. Tiffany did say, I wonder if you could elaborate a bit about his teaching in England. Did he have other students?
Speaker 2: (44:26)
Oh, absolutely. You know, Oxford, a lot of the sons of the great nobility, that, that he, he taught Nicholas idol and, I’d have to go back through the notes to, to, to get the name, but a lot of that though, the, the, the sons of the aristocrats in Oxford, you know, he was very much in, in their education and very much in, in having a much more argumentative kind of healthy debate with his students. And then that comes across in the book as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1: (44:54)
The Socratic thing almost where you kind of go through and argue with each other.
Speaker 2: (44:58)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Speaker 1: (45:02)
Awesome. Well, people should buy your book and they should read your book and, and check it out. And thank you so much again for
Speaker 2: (45:11)
Lovely.
Speaker 1: (45:13)
Thank you so
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